Doak and Strantz in Myrtle Beach (MattW is wrong!)

[Andy Hughes]

Had the pleasure of playing Doak's Heathland Course and Strantz's True Blue in Myrtle Beach this past week.  For those who say all Myrtle Beach golf is 'cookie-cutter' or dull or worthless, please go play these two gems.  They are both interesting courses that stand apart from most of the other courses in the area.

A more detailed look at True Blue will be coming in the next day or two, with a few pictures.

PS Matt, sorry to put hyperbolic words in your mouth, I know you love MB almost as much as the Poconos, but you never slammed everyMB course.  

[Jfaspen]

If you liked True Blue, you'll love Stranz's other MYR couse, Caledonia, right across the street.

True Blue is a fun test and I refer to it as golf super-sized.  I can't wait to play it again.

[A.G._Crockett]

Agreed on all these courses.  Next time you're down there, go to the north end of the strand and try River's Edge, Thistle, Tiger's Eye, and Glen Dornoch.  Also, go back to the Legends and play Parkland, which both Doak and Strantz worked on, and Moorland for the contrast (P.B. Dye, and not as good as the others, but worth seeing.)

[Andy Hughes]

Jeff, 'super-sized' strikes me as a very good description of True Blue. Everything feels bigger and more pronounced there.  I have played Caledonia several times before in years past. What a contrast!

A.G., thanks for the suggestions.
I suspect I'd make a return visit to the Heathlands course next time I am at the Legends. There was much to see on that course, and I suspect I missed quite a bit. I'd also like the chance to see it when it was firmer....

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I never said everything in the Grand Strand is forgettable -- just about 95% or more.

The Grand Strand is the king of fast food golf and minus the few exceptions -- the rule still holds true for me.

Ditto that other golf capital of the free world -- the Poconos.

[A.G._Crockett]

Andy,
Pay no attention to naysayers.  I've played almost 50 different courses on the Strand, and I'd put them up against any 50 public access courses in a comparable geographic area anywhere.  Bar none.

What happens, IMHO, is that the quantity is so great that it is difficult not to get lost in the shuffle, and the overall quality is assumed to be poor.  In fact, the average course in MB is fine, and the good ones are terrific.  Many of the good ones have already been cited here, so I'll comment on one that is "average".

The Witch is a Dan Maples design that is very run of the mill on the MB golf scene.  It isn't new, it isn't exclusive, and it isn't expensive.  It is, however, an excellent design, and if it were elsewhere, say in your hometown, it would be one of the elite courses in the area.  There are a number of such courses there.  The Pearl West is another Maples design that I think is excellent, but gets little attention.

I think the implicit assumption by many on this site is that a place that is so completely public (and make no mistake; MB might very well be the capitol of public golf on the planet) must be inferior to places that are more high ticket and exclusive.  This is the worst sort of elitism, because it has much, much more to do with the people that play there than the golf courses themselves.  Ignore it.

I'll say it again; the GCA at MB will compare favorably to any area of a similar size for public access golf.  

[Brian Cenci]

A.G. - ditto on the Thistle Club.  Played it this year and really liked it.  Make sure you play it's signature 9 though (if possible), which I didn't.  So I saw the lesser of the three 18's but they were still very good.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. - ditto on the Thistle Club.  Played it this year and really liked it.  Make sure you play it's signature 9 though (if possible), which I didn't.  So I saw the lesser of the three 18's but they were still very good.

The newest 9 there (and I can never remember which two were the originals) is much shorter and less enjoyable than the original 18.  I think you would find all of Tim Cate's work in the area to be very good.  Tiger's Eye at Ocean Ridge Plantation is just excellent; somewhat similar to True Blue.  Cate is currently building a 4th course there as well.  That's one of the few new projects going on there now that things have slowed down.

[Andy Hughes]

I never said everything in the Grand Strand is forgettable -- just about 95% or more.
The Grand Strand is the king of fast food golf and minus the few exceptions -- the rule still holds true for me.
Ditto that other golf capital of the free world -- the Poconos.

Matt, I know you didn't say every course is forgettable, that's why I bolded 'every' originally. But I hate to pass up the chance to say you are wrong, even if I have to stretch things  
Also, I tend to think there are more good courses in MB than you do, but certainly to each his own. You clearly have the time and wherewithal to play many wonderful courses in lots of different places, and those are not options available to me, so maybe that plays a part in it.  

PS I do hope someday we can play the Poconos Tour together, perhaps with Mr Cirba as tour guide....

A.G., I agree with you. I have played a number of courses in MB over the years, and I would be the first to say lots of them were duds, but many of them were fun and/or interesting courses.  But where else can you go and find such a vast collection of courses?  Where else can someone like me, with few or no real connections, go and play a fine Doak course and a pair of fine Strantz courses?

[A.G._Crockett]

Try this:

In the Golf Digest Top 100 Public Courses list, we find:

#38  Love Course at Barefoot
#39  Dunes Club
#41  Tiger's Eye
#58  Caledonia
#67  Tidewater
#81  Fazio Course at Barefoot
#83  River's Edge
#93  True Blue

Without glorifying rankings or Golf Digest, that's 8 of the top 100 public courses in a space of 60 miles, which is the distance from Shallotte (River's Edge) to Pawley's Island (Caledonia and True Blue).  Where else do you find that?  By comparison, the entire state of Georgia (my home) has a total of three courses on the list, and Georgia is the biggest state east of the Mississippi!

I would add to the list above, ONLY from the courses that I have played, the following as worthy GCA:

Legends, all three courses
Glen Dornoch
Marsh Harbour
Oyster Bay
Pearl West
Shaftesbury Glen
Thistle
The Witch
Black Bear
Avocet Course at Wild Wing

That still leaves out a number of highly regarded courses that either aren't ranked or that I haven't personally seen that others tell me are very good, such as:

Arcadian Shores
Dye Course at Barefoot
Grande Dunes
Litchfield
Pawley's Plantation
Pine Lakes
Prestwick
Wachesaw

By the way, you can play the 8 courses listed above from the GD Top 100 for a total of well less than $800, maybe MUCH less depending on the time of year.  Where else is THAT possible?

[Michael Whitaker]

AG - Alas, Marsh Harbour is no more. The course closed about three years ago and, sadly, will never return. It was one of my very favorites on the Grand Strand.  

[A.G._Crockett]

Michael,
I thought the same, but it is still in the Golf Holiday book for '05, and somebody told me that they thought it might reopen next year.  I hated to see Ocean Harbour go; we came past there on a deep-sea fishing trip this year and you couldn't even tell that there had ever been a course there.  Odell Williamson's daughter hasn't been a good thing for his golf courses, unfortunately.  Maybe Marsh Harbour will be spared somehow.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G.

If you are hanging your credibility on what Digest proclaims as the best in America I have to say you need to find another source that's a bit more thorough. These are the same people who publish "Places to Play" and you have readers handing out course "stars" because someone greeted the foursome when they arrived at the course.

The Grand Strand does have a few courses of note. I used to go to school in the Carolinas and have played a representative number of the courses that dot the landscape.

Much of what is there is akin to fast food -- you opt for it because it satisfies an immediate craving. You don't eat or play golf there if you are looking for a compelling design equal or beyond what's really good or of cuisine status.

A.G. -- there are a number of states where the cost to play either matches or is below what Myrtle Beach courses charge -- especially when one stacks up their spring & fall rate packages. You may need to venture to some of the mountain time states because the quality of public golf is easily at or beyond just about anything you see in the Grand Strand -- save for the top half dozen layouts.

[Brian_Gracely]

Matt,

When does the first issue of "Rocky Mountain Golfer" hit the press?

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Sandbox --

Get off your duff and bring the clubs there because far too few people comprehend the depth of courses available to the masses -- and they generally provide a very modest greens fee to play the sheer bulk of them.

Of course -- if you prefer fast food golf par excellance than the Grand Strand (minus the small handful of interesting layouts) and quite possibly the Poconos should be your ultimate destination.

[Andy Hughes]

Of course -- if you prefer fast food golf par excellance than the Grand Strand (minus the small handful of interesting layouts) and quite possibly the Poconos should be your ultimate destination.

Hey now, don't be giving away the secrets about Poconos golf and its brilliance.

Matt, if you were to recommend a 4 day golfing trip with the guys, and you were tasked with making it inexpensive as well playing on interesting/quality courses, what would be the top 3 or 4 places you would suggest?  Golf Digest (or was it Golf?) in the current issue recommends North Dakota and Hawktree, Red Mike and ___(sorry, drew a blank on the third course)

Mike/A.G.--was Marsh Harbor the one with the hopscotch par 5 near the end of the round?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Prices are often subject to the time of year you play. The Grand Strand does offer a solid winter package but you roll the dice when you opt in that direction.

To answer your question -- the best alternative during the high season most likely would be The Land of Enchantment (New Mexico). The facilities are primarily located in and around the Albuquerque area (I'm including Santa Fe & Taos) and the prices are more than fair and the return from the golf is very impressive with the likes of Black Mesa, Paa-Ko Ridge, Pinon Hills (Farmington), Twin Warriors (the highest charge of the bunch), plus a slew of other courses that can fill out one's menu with the likes of UNM / Championship, Cochiti, Isleta, etc, etc.

You also can't go wrong with public golf in and around the greater Denver area. There are a range of golf options streching from the Castle Rock area and extending north along I-25 all the way to Fort Collins.

One other destination would be the greater Reno area which would include the nearby Lake Tahoe region and the Sierra area along I-80. Again -- a wealth of golf options to choose and the formulaic courses are no where near as plentiful as what you get with the capiatl of fast food golf -- the Grand Strand.

P.S. As an honorable mention -- I would also suggest the Williamsburg area and extending that through Virginia Beach. The locations are quite varied with the likes of Royal New Kent and the former Stonehouse in Toano (both Strantz designed layouts).

P.S. Plus -- the Dakota are a golf option but frankly The Links at Red Mike Resort in Ray is vastly overrated IMHO. I like the Kay course but for people to think it's among the top 100 public in the USA is a big time stretch and is ignoring plenty of better golf layouts in the immediate region such as Red Rock in Rapid City, SD. Hawktree is also good but you can do better with the golf options in western Colorado with the likes of Lakota Canyon Ranch, Devils Thumb in Delta and Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction. You can also a short detour to Monticello, UT and play the well designed Forrest Richardson layout called The Hideout.

Hope the info helps ...

[A.G._Crockett]

O.K., Matt.  Throw out Golf Digest.  YOU pick the list, or make your own, and name a place with 8 courses comparable to or better than the first list in my post that are public access within a one hour drive of each other.  Forget the other 15 or so that I named.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G.

The Grand Strand folks have pumped tons of money into their overall marketing and advertising programs. During the course of time the "belief" among many Joe Sixpack types and others of this level were that golf in the area stretching from Georgetown SC to Brunswick County, NC was some sort of bastion for quality golf design.

Once you go below the surface -- not too far I might add -- you see that all the hoopla is more hype than reality.

I was a student at University of South Carolina and spent who knows how many visits to the area. Yes, you named a few layouts of quality -- many of them are closer to more modern times in the last 5-10 years than the courses that came on board from say 20-25 or more years ago. I still love The Dunes and I can see why Tidewater is praised for what Ken Tomlinson did.

However, the sheer bulk of what is there is simply fast food --play as many holes as you can before you drop type golf. If that floats your architectural boat and pocketbook then by all means knock yourself out and enjoy them over and over and over.

If you are looking for quality courses simply re-read the post I forwarded to Andy -- there are places in the USA but the sheer volume of advertising and marketing has caused many people sadly to believe that the Grand Strand is some sort of "must visit" destination. Frankly, it's more about quantity -- over 100+ courses -- than overall quality. Size up the batting average and my point on fast food golf fits quite well.

[A.G._Crockett]

O.K., Matt.  Throw out Golf Digest.  YOU pick the list, or make your own, and name a place with 8 courses comparable to or better than the first list in my post that are public access within a one hour drive of each other.  Forget the other 15 or so that I named.

Same question, Matt.  60 miles.  Don't tell me about the freakin' Rocky Mt. states, for crying out loud.  Give me a 60 mile area with 8 courses that matches even as dopey a list as Golf Digest.

Which of the 20 or so courses that I listed are NOT quality GCA?  Which of the 8 on the GD list are NOT quality GCA?

And quit knocking Joe Sixpack while you are at it.   It isn't very becoming to come across as an elitist who says that everybody who doesn't believe as you do is being duped by the MB marketing machine.  Just talk about the courses that I listed.

[A.G._Crockett]

Andy:

Prices are often subject to the time of year you play. The Grand Strand does offer a solid winter package but you roll the dice when you opt in that direction.

To answer your question -- the best alternative during the high season most likely would be The Land of Enchantment (New Mexico). The facilities are primarily located in and around the Albuquerque area (I'm including Santa Fe & Taos) and the prices are more than fair and the return from the golf is very impressive with the likes of Black Mesa, Paa-Ko Ridge, Pinon Hills (Farmington), Twin Warriors (the highest charge of the bunch), plus a slew of other courses that can fill out one's menu with the likes of UNM / Championship, Cochiti, Isleta, etc, etc.

You also can't go wrong with public golf in and around the greater Denver area. There are a range of golf options streching from the Castle Rock area and extending north along I-25 all the way to Fort Collins.

One other destination would be the greater Reno area which would include the nearby Lake Tahoe region and the Sierra area along I-80. Again -- a wealth of golf options to choose and the formulaic courses are no where near as plentiful as what you get with the capiatl of fast food golf -- the Grand Strand.

P.S. As an honorable mention -- I would also suggest the Williamsburg area and extending that through Virginia Beach. The locations are quite varied with the likes of Royal New Kent and the former Stonehouse in Toano (both Strantz designed layouts).

P.S. Plus -- the Dakota are a golf option but frankly The Links at Red Mike Resort in Ray is vastly overrated IMHO. I like the Kay course but for people to think it's among the top 100 public in the USA is a big time stretch and is ignoring plenty of better golf layouts in the immediate region such as Red Rock in Rapid City, SD. Hawktree is also good but you can do better with the golf options in western Colorado with the likes of Lakota Canyon Ranch, Devils Thumb in Delta and Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction. You can also a short detour to Monticello, UT and play the well designed Forrest Richardson layout called The Hideout.

Hope the info helps ...

Matt,
This is more specific that usual, which I appreciate.  However, neither the Golfweek state-by-state rankings nor the Golf Digest Public Course rankings give you much support in comparing the volume of highly-regarded courses in these areas with the 8 that  I originally listed within a 60 mile distance at Myrtle, and you still don't discuss anything newer than Tidewater.

I don't mean that ANY ranking list is the Bible, but since neither you nor I made up either list, there is at least an element of objectivity there.  Also, I'm sure the golf in the areas that you mention is wonderful; that fact, of course, in no way speaks to the relative GCA quality in 2005 at another location, specifically MB.

Take your three areas, use MapQuest to get the distances between the 8 courses in each area that you say are the best, then use either or both magazine ranking list to determine the relative GCA merits of each group of 8.  I think you will be disappointed.  

Failing that, just take the list of nearly 30 courses that I have given you that are highly-regarded on the Strand and tell me which are architecturally deficient.  That is 30 that I have pretty good knowledge of, and 30 courses within a 60 mile area.  I would love to hear what you think of the 8 on the Golf Digest list, or on the Golfweek state lists for NC and SC, or either of the other two lists I had.  PLEASE, though; no more damning those courses (8 or 30, your pick) because there are others that aren't as good, because we both know that's true in Reno, Denver, and Albuquerque as well, and is totally irrelevant.  Also, please don't tell us about college x years ago; deal with the GCA on the Strand as it is today, in 2005, and the courses that ARE highly regarded by people other than you and I.

[paul cowley]

...Love course at Barefoot #38 public....somethings funny, I'm with Matt.....must be those G.D. raters again....

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I don't need to validate my opinions simply because other magazines say this or say that. I see more places in a year than some people see in 3-4.

I'm not making myself out to be some sort of brain trust but frankly the idea that the magazines -- any of them -- have some sort of monopoly on what constitutes quality golf is really a stretch. What you see with the magazines is a "consensus" approach. If you think they have some sort of inside information then by all means plan your life around what they say. You harp on the word "objectivity" -- c'mon A.G. please stop -- I'm falling off the keyboard with such a bit of big time baloney. Too many of the raters are nothing more than regional homers who don't have the time / skills / inclination to travel the country in a fairly intense manner to really make the kind of cross comparisons of courses that are needed. If you want to make your future travel plans based on what Digest says is the best courses to play be my guest.

A.G. -- do yourself a favor -- if you prefer buffet style golf then stay in the Grand Strand area -- you have the garden variety hamburger, fries and vanilla shake type design. Let's start with Tidewater -- it's a fine layout -- is it top 100 public in the USA? Not in my book it is. I can name a half a dozen layout in the immediate Denver area that have ample design merits but because the greater Denver area doesn't advertise to the degree that the Grand Strand does each and every Spring & Fall you get this rush of excitement that the "great" Grand Strand is some sort of go-to destination. If you believe that please stop by Jersey because I have some great swamp -- opps -- ocean front property for you to buy.

One other thing -- Tidewater is indeed a fine course but when you stack it up against such design wonders like Longbay and all the rest you can see it would look even greater by comparison.

The Dunes for me is still one of the best you can play in the Grand Strand area -- the other courses you named are clearly better than the bulk of the slop that calls itself golf in the area. But the leap to the top of the public poll for the UNITED STATES OF AMERCIA is a bit more competitive my friend.

The New Mexico area's top 5 courses (all within the 60 mile area between Santa Fe and Albuquerque) easily are ahead of the top five in the Grand Strand. And, let's not forget something that seems to have flown right over your head -- take the collective batting average of the total courses in the Grand Strand area and let me know how many of them are "must play" hold everything and go play right now. New Mexico has a tiny fraction of public courses compared to the Grand Strand area but the top five in the Land of Enchantment race by the top five in the Grand Strand without any question in my book.

I can also say the same thing for the quality public courses that are in the Denver area stretching from Castle Rock through the northern fringes of the Denver suburbs -- again no more than 60 miles. Bear Dance in Larkspur should be a top 100 public course but they don't have the ad and marketing budget like the fast food golf capital of the world. I can easily name several others that are quality offerings there too.

Let's also not forget the other ingredient you mentioned -- price. I know New Mexcio, Denver and the Reno area are far more modest in their rates during the comparable high times. The Grand Strand certainly may drop their rates during the month of December through February -- but tell me good buddie what the named courses you mentioned are charging during the month of April / May and September thru early November. You can be sure that many are in the triple digit range.

One other thing -- how many of the top courses you named in the Grand Strand are really in tip top shape and play on a fairly regular basis in a firm and fast manner? Talk about watering the turf to death. Too many of the courses in the Grand Strand practice the "turf shall always be green at all costs" mentality.

A quick synopsis --

Both Barefoot courses are quality layouts -- but are they worthy of top 100 status -- pardon me but Fuuuugitaboutit !!

True Blue and Caledonia are interesting designs by Strantz and I would say worthy of a clear play when in the area. Are they top 100 public in the USA -- that's a close call and a good 19th hole discussion. For the sake of argument I'll say yes.

River's Edge and Tiger's Eye are on my list to play the next time I'm in town to visit my alma mater.

A.G. Try to understand that other areas of the country have some dynamic courses but don't have the means to advertise. The Grand Strand is for the guy in Pittsburgh or Detroit or wherever -- who is freezing his behind and after the Super Bowl needs a fix of golf to keep him happy with the wife and kids hanging on him like sea weed. The Grand Strand gives you more -- just like Walmart.

[Matt_Ward]

My last post was to A.G. and I incorrectly tagged it to Andy.

Mea culpa on my part.

[paul cowley]

 Matt ...you can pretty much divide people by what side of the mississippi is their preference....some love the big scenery and contrasts of the west and some enjoy the comfort and security of trees and the smaller scale of the east.....I'm beginning to think your barn door faces west while your ass is stuck in New Jersey.