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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #100 on: August 23, 2005, 05:31:17 PM »
MWP,

Then Scott is unfamiliar with the configuration of the golf course prior to A US Open.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #101 on: August 23, 2005, 05:57:03 PM »
patrick
That would certainly make sense, as I do not believe he has been there that long.
I certainly see your point about pre US Open and post, so what you are saying is that basically the current fairway widths are the result of when the Open was last played there.
Is that correct?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #102 on: August 23, 2005, 06:52:40 PM »
They are projecting the cut for matchplay at +7 - that is to say, +7 makes the playoff, +8 does not.

I can't remember what it was at Oakmont, but I think it was similar. The second course then was Pgh Field Club.

And, Mike C, I continue to resent your misrepresentation of the '03 Am. I was there every day. I have seen tougher rough. I have seen narrower fairways. I have never seen a course presently as tough but as fair as Oakmont that year. :) Seriously, the rough was not hay, as you describe it. It was penal, but it was possible to hit out of it. I personally stood next to more than a couple players as they hit out of the rough, and very few that I personally witnessed just hacked it out. They usually made a go at the green. Some got it there, some didn't, but few just hacked it out, which is what hay-like rough implies to me. Oakmont defended itself with the best set of greens imaginable, not hay life rough bordering overly narrow fairways. I'd imagine Merion's defenses are much the same.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 07:24:18 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #103 on: August 23, 2005, 07:27:09 PM »
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.  

Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.

Mike,

He 5-putted #12!!!

TK

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #104 on: August 23, 2005, 10:03:24 PM »
With the playoff for the final match play spots will taking place early tomorrow, Canadians have the potential to represent 7 of the 64 spots  ;D. The medalist, Lepp will likely contend right until the end, definitely the best amateur in Canada.

TK

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #105 on: August 23, 2005, 10:18:40 PM »
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.  

Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.

Mike,

He 5-putted #12!!!



Mike Cirba,

Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know ?
[/color]

TEPaul

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #106 on: August 23, 2005, 10:40:13 PM »
Thank God I don't need to depend for accurate information on some of the opinions on this website who haven't even seen Merion this week. If I did I'd think they were talking about some other golf course. Merion is just about right on the money.

The rough? It's great. Hit it out there and you could get a good lie or you could get fairly screwed----it's particularly inconsistent, thank God, which is the way proper rough should be.

The greens are just about perfect for speed and firmness---actually the USGA apparently called for a bit of toning down. If you hit a really good shot you can get some check and control and if you don't hit a good shot you probably won't.

It's wonderful to see a truly great golf course and golf architecture set-up just about ideally for a national championship like the United States Amateur.

Tomorrow starts match play and I just can't imagine a better and more interesting match play golf course than Merion the way it is now and will be this week.

Really good shots and good concentration and good strategic choices are rewarded out there---marginal ones need some concentration to recover properly and thoughtlessness or  poor execution gets compounded on a course like Merion East---that's why we love and respect the golf course so much around here. There's nothing unusual about that this week----that's the way Merion East is, and always has been. That's the way the golf course is supposed to be. Everyone around here including the membership knows and understands that---they always have.

The decision to shut down early a few weeks ago now looks like a very wise one. Congratulations to Merion and super Matt Shaeffer and his great crew----you've all done a great job bringing the course into this amateur just about as good as it can get right through some truly stressful times recently.

Qualifying came in exactly as I expected----146-147. Right around dark the cut went from 147 into 146 by about 2-3 players. And just as I expected, I didn't think there'd be quite 64 who could shoot 74 or better at Merion.

It's interesting how that falls right around Merion's course rating which probably should be what "scratch" US Amateur caliber players should shoot on a course like that.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2005, 10:54:32 PM by TEPaul »

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2005, 08:49:29 AM »
Merion must be breathing a huge sigh of collective relief after Keven Simard came slightly back down to earth after a scorching front nine to finish at -1, 69.  

Interestingly, the hole that did him in was a triple on #12.

Mike,

He 5-putted #12!!!



Mike Cirba,

Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know ?
[/color]

Pat,

The only thing that it tells you is that he hit 4 BAD putts. ;)  The hole location on #12 was back right.  It was not in that bad of a position.  The greens were quick, but not overdone.

Keven Fortin Simard's quote was:
"The five-putt from within 40 feet was a case of not paying enough attention to the speed and too much attention to the line.  So after the first putt came up 8 feet short, Fortin-Simard would bomb his second 5 feet past. When the third lipped out, he was left with another 5-footer coming back, which he missed before tapping in for a seven.

"I just stayed focused, I didn’t get mad or anything. Those things happen," said Fortin-Simard. "I’m still happy with the day in general."


« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 09:04:19 AM by JSlonis »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2005, 09:00:53 AM »
TEP ... As you said, there's golf and then there's tournament golf...

I always thought it was Bobby Jones who said that.

Or Max Behr.

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2005, 09:18:59 AM »
They are projecting the cut for matchplay at +7 - that is to say, +7 makes the playoff, +8 does not.

I can't remember what it was at Oakmont, but I think it was similar. The second course then was Pgh Field Club.

And, Mike C, I continue to resent your misrepresentation of the '03 Am. I was there every day. I have seen tougher rough. I have seen narrower fairways. I have never seen a course presently as tough but as fair as Oakmont that year. :) Seriously, the rough was not hay, as you describe it. It was penal, but it was possible to hit out of it. I personally stood next to more than a couple players as they hit out of the rough, and very few that I personally witnessed just hacked it out. They usually made a go at the green. Some got it there, some didn't, but few just hacked it out, which is what hay-like rough implies to me. Oakmont defended itself with the best set of greens imaginable, not hay life rough bordering overly narrow fairways. I'd imagine Merion's defenses are much the same.

George,

My apologies.  Knowing you personally, if I have you "resent"ing something I've said, then I have clearly misrepresented my case.

I certainly didn't mean to cast any aspersions on Oakmont but perhaps I've been over-using the example as a foil to match the contention of some on here who infer that a tough (re: "unfair") setup is needed because of architectural deficiencies, whether in the case of Baltusrol a few weeks back, or Merion this week.

I'm certain that having been there, you're correct in your assessment of the rough at Oakmont not being "hay", but instead, tough but playable.  I think rough should be an "iffy" and not purely penal proposition and it sounds as though it was in 03, and from first hand accounts, that's what it sounds like it is this week at Merion, as well.

Clearly some of us purists would love to see wider fairways and less of an emphasis on rough at the courses we love, but at Championship level golf, an emphasis on accuracy over options seems to be unavoidable, particularly given the distance most top modern players can achieve.

By the way, you should know that I love Oakmont.  I've never played it but had the pleasure of attending the Saturday and Sunday rounds of the US Open back in 1983 and you're right...there is way more there from an architectural standpoint than just the "penal" reputation of scads of bunkers, high rough, and blazing greens.  The use of topography on that course in the routing is sensational, as is the variety of hole presentations.  I'm sure the recent tree removals have only enhanced the property and golf course.

Personally, I think we're extremely fortunate to have two courses in Pennsylvania, each about 100 years old,  both under 7000 yards (although I believe recent tee additions might have stretched Oakmont beyond that), that can still challenge top players in exciting and original ways.  Frankly, I'm amazed at how well Merion held up this week and to know that the scoring average was as high as a fearsome test as Oakmont says something about the degree of challenge at both courses.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2005, 09:35:27 AM »
In today's Philadelphia Inquirer:

Comments from Bob Tway, whose 16 year old son Kevin, the Junior Am champ, failed to qualify:
"This place is unbelievable. A golf course this good deserves another Open"
"It doesn't matter what the winning score is...It's an Open course."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mike_Cirba

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2005, 10:23:33 AM »
I hope this isn't interpreted as gloating, but instead as wonderment.

Of 311 rounds played at Merion, only 4 players broke par, each shooting a -1 69.  The stroke avg. on day one was about 78.2.  

Does anyone know what the stroke average was on day two?  My sense if that it was similar.    

I have not heard a single account by any contestant, or in-person observer use the words "unfair", or "goofy", or "over the top" to describe the setup.  In fact, everyone said just the opposite, including some who ventured that Merion on a day to day basis might be firmer and faster and rougher than was possible given the weather of late.  

So, given the conventional wisdom that Merion is a course passed by time and technology, how many here can honestly say that they weren't surprised by the challenge provided this week?

If someone had told you that it would play a little soft (Jamie mentioned sizeable ball marks and balls holding greens from the rough), and that the rough would not be overly penal, how many would have believed -1 by four of 311 contestants would have been the low medal scores?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2005, 10:46:50 AM »
Mike -

I was kidding using the word resent, but I did think it was necessary to delve into the issue of the rough.

Wish I were there at Merion to see the play first hand.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2005, 11:07:50 AM »
Are some on here saying that Merion East should be set-up for the US Amateur Championship just like any weekend for member play?

If so, I sure wouldn't agree with that. Frankly, knowing Merion East for years the set-up probably isn't all that much different anyway. The greens are probably a little faster, the pins are probably a bit more challenging etc. I can certainly tell you all that the rough is nowhere near as penal right now for the US Amateur as it was about a year ago for the membership. The membership did not like all that high fescue rough though and the club got maintenance to cut it down significantly which is the way it is right now.

All the US amateur contestants are playing this week is the new tips to a course set-up slightly more challenging due to pin positions and perhaps a bit more speed on the greens this week---but not much more speed than normal play. The USGA itself apparently told the club they do not want to take the course set-up near the edge in this sense of producing a set-up that is near "over the top".

But again, if some on here are saying the course should be set-up exatly like any weekend, I think that's ridiculous---this is the United States Amateur, folks, with many of the best amateurs in the world here this week. The course should be set-up to offer them the commensurate challenge that the architecture of Merion East is all about for their considerable skills.

Is there and was there significant "field separation" in the sense of scoring this week? There sure was. Why would anyone want it otherwise? That's precisely what a great golf course with great architecture like Merion is all about. Through qualifying of 312 golfers and through the week of match play and on to the finals on Sunday it will identify the best golfers and the golfer who is playing the best and most intelligent golf this week.

Did Philly C.C. play a few strokes easier for the qualifiers this week? It sure did but that's just the difference in the two courses. It's always been that way---and this week is no different.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2005, 11:13:52 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2005, 11:18:51 AM »
"Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"


Pat:

Did you ask that question?

If so the answer is the members of Merion wouldn't fare much different on the course this week and then do the rest of the time. Of course they'd fare much different this week if they were all asked to play the new tip tees as the US Amateur contestents are but not that many members play them anyway. But if they did they wouldn't fare much different this week than any other time.

Jason Tetterton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2005, 11:58:15 AM »
Dane Burkhart, the young man that shot 59 in the Palmetto Amateur, has won his first round match.  He shot 69 yesterday at Merion.

Jim Nugent

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #116 on: August 24, 2005, 02:08:18 PM »
Guys are winning 4 and 3, and they are 1 or 2 over!  World´s best am´s are not tearing apart the course.  Just the opposite I would say so far.  

Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #117 on: August 24, 2005, 02:12:18 PM »
george zahringer, one of the best mid am's-sen am's in the country, certainly not a young college kid,

shot 78 today and WON his match 1 up.

i was there yesterday, the course is defintily all these guys can handle.

jason
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #118 on: August 24, 2005, 03:14:52 PM »
george zahringer, one of the best mid am's-sen am's in the country, certainly not a young college kid,

shot 78 today and WON his match 1 up.

i was there yesterday, the course is defintily all these guys can handle.

jason

Jason,

Zaringer was +6 for 18 holes.  Amazingly, his opponent shot 5 under on the front nine and lost the match in 19 holes.  His opponent was +2 for 18 holes.  This match is a perfect example of why Match Play drives me nuts. ;D

Tony_Chapman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #119 on: August 24, 2005, 03:23:04 PM »
Jamie - I couldn't believe you so I had to look, but you were right. Zahringer didn't make a birdie on the back side and won four holes!!

Poor Chandler Cocco shot 31-42, then parred the first and got beat. Wow!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #120 on: August 24, 2005, 04:28:07 PM »
Anyone know how Kyle Riefers is doing? I know he is playing the medalist, but he is a Walker Cup member so I know he is pretty good. Anyway, he is the son of a friend of mine.
Mr Hurricane

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #121 on: August 24, 2005, 04:30:25 PM »
Was two up through about 7, but is now even with four to play.

http://www.usamateur.org/scoring/matlst1.htm

Brian_Gracely

Re:Merion Today
« Reply #122 on: August 24, 2005, 04:30:45 PM »
Jim,

All the match scores can be found here: http://www.usamateur.org/scoring/matlst1.htm

Kyle is just one of two Wake Forest golfers (also Webb Simpson) that are doing the Deacs proud this week!!  Throw in Sean Moore winning the North & South and it looks like WFU should be very strong in 2005-2006.  

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #123 on: August 24, 2005, 04:35:44 PM »
Thanks Brian, all square thru 14. His mom is a friend of mine and an excellent player as well. I know where he gets his golf genes.
Mr Hurricane

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Merion Today
« Reply #124 on: August 24, 2005, 04:49:05 PM »
My freind Austin Eaton won is 1st round match 2&1.  

Interestingly enough, they didn't show his match at all on TV until his last 2 foot putt to win.  Austin is the 5th seed for match play and the commentator mentioned that his victory was an upset over the College All-Amer.  Pablo Martin.  Like Rodney Dangerfield....the Mid-Am's get "No Respect...No Respect!" ;D