golf digest's top college courses

[stevencollins]

Was wondering if any of our more experienced members had any reaction to the top college courses recently listed by Golf Digest?

steve

[Jeff_Brauer]

Steve,

Of course, Colbert Hills is ranked FAR too low......

[Tom_Doak]

I'm sure Geoffrey Childs will be thrilled that The Rawls Course finished one place ahead of The Course at Yale.

Frankly, I was shocked that The Rawls Course finished that high.  They must have taken wind into account in Resistance to Scoring, since the 80-yard-wide fairways are tough to miss.  [Well, I guess only one of those college girls shot under par for 54 holes.]  

Certainly, I was pleased to see it finish so high to acknowledge the amount of work that went into it, but the down side of those "blank slate" projects is that at the end you can't help thinking it could have been much better if you had only been more clever.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom

Congratulations on the Rawls course. I'd like to get there to see it some day. I'm sure its a really fine course.  What would you're vote have been if you were allowed to submit a ballot including your effort at Rawls?

Golf Digest has or had a corperate membership at the course at Yale.  It seems to be the only way anyone associated with the publication can get remotely close to a place of higher education  

I'm on my way up there shortly for Sweeney/JakaB   outing before the Creek tomorrow.  I'll be sure to discuss these findings with Pat Mucci.

Seriously, the Yale administration and Roger Rulewich would have hired a hit man for me if they could get away with it for my criticisms of the bunker project.  Now that they have turned the corner with tree removal, greens expansion and general maintenance and I give them credit my advocacy for the course seems to garner attention as well.  I'm passionate about the place because it's worth it. The course is THAT good in its bones and Tom Doak - if Rawls can be considered in the same breath as the course at Yale you have done VERY well indeed.

[Brad Klein]

Looking forward to seeing/reviewing the Rawls Course this Wednesday. Also can't wait to see the heat and wind of Lubbock in late August.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:  You're in for a treat with the wind.

Look forward to hearing what you think of the course.  Just do me one favor ... go look at what we had to start with.  If you go back behind the 14th green and 15th tee and over the "framing mounds", you'll get a fair idea of what we had to work with.

[Brad Klein]

See my note above in the thread about "standards for reviews" inw hich I talk about the development process. That'll surely be part of the Rawls Course review. Last week, Urbina game me a diagram with an account of the five flat fields and how you guys built the place.

[T_MacWood]

I predict the Rawls courses position will be shortlived once the raters get their hands on the new and improved Ohio State.

[Scott Witter]

Tom,

Are you implying that you may have left some cleverness still in the ground in TX?  THAT couldn't be possible.

For clarification purposes, when you refer to a "blank slate" do you mean budget wise or the actual site? and if it is the site, is not every site a blank slate for us to use in the best manner possible by utilizing all of our "cleverness"?  In my mind though, I invision a blank slate site with little character to work with or respond to as opposed to a landscape with interesting natural character, features, rhythm and movement.  And so by your note to Brad to look behind the 14th green...there apparently isn't "much" to see.

With this said though, do you find it more rewarding/satisfying to work on a site that is restricted in some ways thereby challenging you to integrate (puzzlemaster) your design thoughts with the landscape as opposed to having a blank slate?  But of course this goes back to your/my interpretation of the "blank slate".

[Scott Witter]

My post was a bit behind that of Brad K, so I gusss the heart of my post has been answered by Brad stating the reference to the diagram of five flat fields he received from Jim Urbina.

Tom Doak, I would still be interested in your response though.

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:  When I have a site with some good topography or vegetation or views, I judge myself on how well I used those features; it would not occur to me to treat it like a "blank slate."  

When you don't have any of those features, then you are creating from scratch and there is no way to judge how you've done.

In Lubbock all we had was the wind, and a bunch of negative views we had to try to block or avoid.  I think we did a pretty good job of using the wind; the downwind holes allow for a variety of run-up shots, most of the holes give you more than one way to play them, the par-3's all hit different angles, etc.

It was really one giant flat field; we just divided it into five parts for the purposes of saving topsoil and moving earth.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I'm a big fan of #1!!   Go Pokes!!


here's the list just in case you don't subscribe (like me).

http://www.golfdigest.com/features/index.ssf?/features/gd200509collegegolf2.html

[Ari Techner]

I played The Rawls Course earlier this year on a very windy day and I thouroughly enjoyed it.  I thought TD did a great job with his "clean slate", I especially enjoyed the greens and the green complexes and the variety of shots I had to hit into them.  

On the rest of the list as much as I hate to say it being an alum and a big fan of the school I think the UofM course is a bit overrated at #3.  I think it is a great course no doubt but IMO it has some weak holes and is not as good as Yale or Rawls.  Id love to see what it looked like when the good Dr. opened it originally in '31.  Its OK though as long as it is ranked above the Scarlet course LOL.  

[Scott Witter]

Tom D.

Thanks, we have the same understanding.  It seems you did have a good challenge in Lubbock without much to work with.  I like the approach of running the shots into the green on downwind holes.

[Dan_Callahan]

That's an interesting list. Two observations:

1) I am a huge fan of the Orchards, but I wouldn't rank it higher than Yale.

2) I'm surprised that Taconic didn't make the list, although I haven't seen enough of the other courses to know which one I would bump off.

[Jeff Shelman]

I walked around the Rawls shortly after it opened when I was there for a dreadful New Year's Day basketball game (nothing like New Years Eve in Lubbock....yuck). To say TD had a blank slate to work with doesn't quite give it justice.

When I think blank slate for a golf course, I think a piece of property with at least something there. Maybe some elevation change. Maybe some interesting natural greensites. Maybe aqua. Maybe some mature trees.

Considering the topography around the course, I'm guessing there was nothing to work with. Just a plot of land that was dead flat.

The most amazing thing for me in my two trips to Lubbock is the flight in. You start to descend to the airport and it seems like you can see for a million miles. Go a mile ouside of town and you can see forever because of the pancake flat land. You see more oil rigs than trees and you wonder if anything can grow there.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's the unbroken link to college links

While I've only played 4 of these, I'd place Warren Course above Duke and Finley.  Yale tops my short list, easily.

Will be interesting to see how good Pete Dye's redone River Course (Radford, VA - college: VT) is.  Should be open by now, was supposed to re-open this month.

[Alex_Wyatt]

Are these all better than Taconic (Williams)?

[Dan_Callahan]

Are these all better than Taconic (Williams)?

Yale = yes

Orchards = maybe

[astavrides]

Are these all better than Taconic (Williams)?

I think I like Duke better than Taconic, which I think is a little overrated (and certainly overpriced for those non-affiliated).

[Daryn_Soldan]

Regarding the blank slate at Texas Tech, Google maps has a good aerial of the course during construction.  Here is the link (sorry, you'll have to cut and paste):

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=lubbock,+tx&ll=33.600751,-101.891413&spn=0.015315,0.028906&t=k&hl=en

If you zoom in on the southeast corner of the property (lower right), holes 14, 15 & 16 have been shaped and bunker forms are visible.  It also appears that excavation is taking place for the lake on 10 & 18.  Following the equipment road it looks as if that soil is being taken to the northeast part of the property.  You can see the featureless nature of the future front nine, the west and northern parts of the property, that hadn't been touched at the time of this photo.  Just a good old west Texas central pivot cotton field.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

In a couple of yeras time , I expect the University of Arkansas cousre...The Blessings to be up in the top ten...if it qualifies as a university course that is.

They have their practice facility there, but it is also somewhat of an exclusive membership, so that exclude it from GD's category.

[johnk]

I've never been there - so can anyone who has tell me why Karsten Creek is ranked so highly?

I have played UM, OhioSt and Stanford though...  (no Yale, yet)

I guess I'm skeptical that KCreek is better than the courses by the old masters...

[Craig Van Egmond]

John,

     I haven't played any of those courses you mentioned, although it could be argued whether or not UM and OSU have anything left or ever had anything from the old masters.

     I have played Karsten Creek a number of times and was there for the 2004 NCAA tournament and it is quite a course. It is by far the best public access course in Oklahoma (ok, so that's not too hard. )   The course is laid out on rolling terrain and you don't ever see anybody else on the course. The conditions are always excellent, with beautiful zoysia grass fairways and bentgrass greens. The course can play very long, the greens are interesting and all the par 3's are good.

     It is a Fazio course so that automatically gets it discredited by some people.

     Check out their website:  http://www.karstencreek.net

     As a student/faculty/staff of OSU you can play the course for a mere $250.00.  Or Joe Blow can walk up and play it for $250.00.  They really don't encourage outside play. It was built for the OSU golf teams, a limited membership and T. Boone Pickens. Of course Karsten Solheim was a big donor to the course.

    As a side note, the golf coach's (Mike Holder) wife plays golf at the local muni.

[A_Clay_Man]

TT was fortunate to get Herr Doak when they did. As I recall it was just after building Pac Dunes, and right before Cape Kidnappers. I'm sure no thoughts of Lubbock were had, while in the southern hemisphere.

Clearly the style of golf at The Rawls course is different form your run of the mill commercial design. It's even different than the golden age stuff. With the mild winters it really is a hoot to play. The decision not to overseed is prophetic for us who yearn for the real deal.
Thanks Tom and Crew, and congrats.