"Ball Speed"?

[TEPaul]

Is "ball speed" the same thing as Initial velocity?

I'm used to talking just about distance in yards, sometimes clubhead MPH etc.

Today the USGA had some sophisticated equipment out behind the 5th tee at Merion measuring a bunch of factors of the US Amateur competitors during practice. The 5th hole at Merion now measures as a 503 yard par 4.

The equipment tracked the ball's trajectory, it's carry distance, and a few other factors. But the first factor on the bottom of the tracking equipment was "ball speed".

What do you guys think a real high "ball speed" is?

Remember that young fellow (18 year old John Hurley) I mentioned I saw in the Nebraska Amateur Championship who hit it so far about six weeks ago when we stopped in at Wild Horse on our way to Sand Hills?

Tell me what you think a high ball speed is and I'll tell you what his ball speed was clocked at today.

[peter_p]

Tiger's clubhead speed is about 140 and his ball speed is near 180. Based on your bragadoccio about the Nebraska phenom it must be 195. Did you check my Merion query?  

[John_Conley]

Tom, without much to go on... I'd say a ball speed of over 175 is rare.  If this is a Schwamkrug/Kuehne type kid I'll go with the 185 range.

[TEPaul]

Peter:

Thanks for that info. Apparently Tiger Woods's clubhead speed is a little less that 135MPH. Does that translate to a "ball speed" of around 180? The young man from Nebraska's "ball speed" was clocked today at 193. The tech guys there were a little surprised, to say the least. That was about 2pm and nobody all day was close to that. I stopped back by the 5th tee as we went up #10 and somebody had a ball speed of 187 since we went through but that was the closest.

I asked his Dad and Mom about his length and they said some outfit tested his length in the Midwest, I think. I believe they said the outfit was called Sieckman. They said his MPH was over 135 and they couldn't quite get a "ball speed" on him since it may've been near 200. That outfit (Sieckman ?) told his parents there can't be 20 people in the world with a ball speed that high.

As an aside, this young man, John Hurley, has a beautiful swing but the interesting thing about it is he doesn't even come close to parallel. As an example of his length, we were trying to figure out a couple of options off the 10th tee---one a lay-up and the other a more agressive drive. The course "through the green" was still pretty soft today---eg hardly any roll at all and he hit a 3 wood just to the right of the green a little past pin high!

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Have those guys behind the 5th tee at Merion check your practice swing speed and your ball striking swing speed.  I bet there aren't 20 people in the world whose swing is so much faster on their practice swing versus the real swing.

193 mph!  What time is Hurley teeing off at Philadelphia Country Club tomorrrow?  This I have to see!

The fellow who you met today with me, John Sauer is only 135 pounds but hits it pretty darn far.  It really is an eye opener watching these guys.  I saw two guys in front of the group I was following hit 2-irons on 17.  One guy was within 20-feet of the pin, the other within 6-feet.

[Larry_Keltto]

Will young Mr. Hurley be attending college in the fall? If so, where?

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Yep, they checked my practice swing speed with that sophisticated equipment behind the 5th tee and told me to get the hell outta there because my swing speed couldn't even get arrested on the PA Turnpike!

Larry:

No, he'll be a senior in high school in the fall. Apparently the NCAA rules say that coaches can talk with him though as of last month. They cannot actually talk to him in the US Amateur until he's done in the competition. His Mom and Dad say they expect five or six coaches to be hanging around watching him this week though.

But if I figure out who those coaches are I'll tell them they can talk to me about him all they want if they pay me some serious whiskey money first.

[wsmorrison]

So those tickets you got on the PA Turnpike were for the other kind of driving?

What time is Hurley teeing off tomorrow?

[TEPaul]

12:15 on the 10th at PCC.

[Mike_Young]

TE,
A good rule of thumb is that ball speed will usually be about 50 more than the swing speed...ex: 100mph swing speed will result in a ball pseed of around 150 and then they try to get the rpms under control with the right launch angle for maximum distance.  I was amazed at what these new machines can do as far as finding the right clubhead loft and shaft.  I had a fitting where the pro told me that I had a 98mph swing speed and he could pick my ball speed up from 147 to 150 by changing launch and spin rate.  He tried several different combinations until he found the right one and I picked up 15 yards with the same swing speed.  

[TEPaul]

MikeY:

Thanks for that technical info on "optimization". One of the scary things about this young Nebraskan, John Hurley, is for a golfer with a "ball speed" that high it doesn't really seem he's getting maximum distance out of it.

To think it may even be likely that noone has actually "optimized" him and what it could do if they did is sort of scary. After all he's only just finished his junior year in high school.

About half way through the practice round yesterday I asked his Dad who taught him how to play and he said he did. I asked his Dad how good a player he was and he said not very good, maybe an 8-9 handicap who took up golf on someone's advice for something to do sports-wise as an adult since he was such a dedicated high-school and college football player and track and field guy. His Mom who says she follows young John everywhere says she doesn't play golf.

I asked him who it was who was caddying for him in the Nebraska State Amateur and he said it was his new high school coach who they say seems very good. His Dad mentioned he's seen a professional teacher but they mentioned since he started seeing him maybe less than a year ago the two have only logged a total of 15 hours together.

But the kid looks like a real natural to me---big and tall and rangy with that solid, sinuy musculature. And with that he seems to have that "quick snap" ability something like Tiger Woods. And all that with a backswing that doesn't go anywhere near parallel.

Yesterday at Merion he did hit some shots both right and left with any club through the bag and he hit a couple of irons fat too that still went extraordinary distances.  For instance off the new tip tees on the 17th from slightly less than 250 he blocked a 4 iron onto the old 18th tee but hole high, then took a 5 iron and sort of blocked that right too but pin high!

There's somethng else about him I noticed in Nebraska and yesterday too. He seems to carry his chin pretty near his chest. Today I might mention he should just try to pick his chin up a tad and who knows---that might free him up even more. A scary thought indeed.  

[Jim Nugent]

Tiger's clubhead speed is about 140 and his ball speed is near 180. Based on your bragadoccio about the Nebraska phenom it must be 195. Did you check my Merion query?  

I´ve seen numbers like that, too, though ball speed on any particular shot will depend on how solidly he hits the ball.  

[Brian_Gracely]

TEPaul,

Are you taking young Mr.Hurley over to see Pine Valley anytime this week?  

[Jeff Fortson]

Tom Paul,

Over the last couple years I have been introduced to the world of optimal launching conditions for oneself when being tested for launch angle, ball spin, ball speed, etc.

One thing I have found is that different testing machines can be totally inconsistent with other machines.  For instance, at a clubmaker in Connecticut's testing shack I had a swing speed of @ 120mph with ball speed in the 180's.  Yet, recently at HotStix (a state of the art clubmaking business in Phoenix) I had a clubhead speed of @ 114 mph with a ball speed in the 160's.  These tests were taken about 14 months apart and I haven't lost that much power in that time.

Basically, what I am saying is that the technology isn't perfect yet but it still helps you to better understand what will most likely work better for you.  I tend to think that the test at HotStix is probably closer to what I am really doing.  

To answer your question, ball speed exceeding 175mph is extremely fast.  If you could match that with a 11-13 degree launch angle and a ball spin of about 2500rpm's you will possibly achieve orbit.  I know a kid who's ball speed can get over 200mph at times.  He hits wedges into 530 yard par 5's.  Sickening.

Hope that helps.


Jeff F.

[Craig Sweet]

The last time I checked myself on a swing monitor my club head speed was in the 98mph to 105mph range and the ball speed was something like 125mph...

It's just a bunch of numbers, in my opinion, for the average golfer...like me..and I fail to see the excitement or interest.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Ball speed on a pure hit will be in the range of 1.45-1.5x swing speed (with swing speed measured just an instant before impact).  Ball speed is best analyzed in terms of its relation to swing speed...the higher the ratio of ball speed to swing speed, the better the quality of contact.

[TEPaul]

Here's what I saw today from young Hurley and his potential swing speed that was clocked at Merion in yesterday's practice round at 193mph. Today he played PCC (the other US AM qualifying site) and his ball striking seemed pretty inconsistent in distance and direction. However, on his second nine (the first nine) he unloaded one on the 5th hole (470 yards) into about a 1 club wind 345 yards and hit a pitching wedge into the green. Again into the wind on the 7th (converted from a par 5 to a par 4 this week he flew the ball into a 1 club headwind exactly 320 (it rolled exactly one yard). But the piece de resistance came on #8 PCC. This is a slightly uphill hole with a listed yardage of 391 from the back. Since the tees had mesh on them where they're trying to protect the tee turf the guys were teeing off all day about a step from the back of every tee. So that made #8 around 400 yards (and sllightly uphill).

When we got up to the fairway and the other three players found their balls in maybe PW to SW range Hurley's caddie said he thought he saw a ball about 90 yards ahead about one yard from the left green-side bunker. I said as long as he is that just couldn't be posslble and his ball must be just ahead in the rough but sure enough that was young Hurley's ball---eg he hit it about 380 yards uphill into a very slight wind. He had about a 15-20 yard pitch over the bunker to a back pin on a hole that played about 400 yards.

By that time the guys he was playing with were wondering what was going on here. They all said they sure aren't short and hadn't seen anything like that drive. On the final hole--about 420 from where they were playing two of the guys hit 3-wood rather than driver (do you blame them) and young Hurley had 90 yards to the middle of the green from where he hit a lob wedge sort of fat to just in front of the green and two putted for par!  

[Shane Gurnett]

He had about a 15-20 yard pitch over the bunker to a back pin on a hole that played about 400 yards.

Tom, did he make 3?

[TEPaul]

"Tom, did he make 3?"

Shane:

To be honest, all day long I rarely saw any of them putt the ball they hit into the green to today's pin. As soon they got to the green they were putting to anywhere and everywhere, and very rarely to the pin (obviously tomorrow and Tuesday the pins won't be where they were today). All day long some were searching the greens for old cup locations.  

[TEPaul]

That's odd to hear that these machines that track ball speed and swing speed and such are not consistent. The equipment the USGA had behind the 5th tee at Merion tracking all this information sure better be accurate. The USGA tech guy (who I know) monitoring it said the stuff costs a small fortune.

[Tony_Chapman]

Tom - The outfit that did his testing was owned by Tom Sieckmann. He played on the tour for about nine years, I think and won that tournament in Williamsburg, VA -- I think it was the Michelob Classic then.

Anyway he and his brother Jim have this lab at their course in Omaha which is where they did the testing.

Hope Mr. Hurley plays well, though, I would be surprised if he made match play. He is just a bit young.

[Tony_Chapman]

As we are talking about a Nebraska boy in this thread, I would be remissed if I didn't mention Nate Lashley as well. He grew up in Mitchell (in the panhandle) and plays for the Univeristy of Arizona. He will be in the group directly ahead of John Hurley.

Nate garnered unfortunate attention during the 2003 NCAA season when his parents and girlfriend were all killed in a plane crash while returning to Scottsbluff from his regional tournament. They did a nice piece on Nate on The Golf Channel prior to nationals this year. A very good and bright kid with an unfortunate burden placed on his shoulders. I hope he plays well this week.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I was at the Nike testing facility on friday, so I know exactly what my ball speed is/was..a massive 158-161.....well at least that explains why I am unable to keep up with the young guns
My 158-161 translates to an overall yardage in the 275-280 region, with the optimal spin rate that the guys in the lab desire.
MAN THAT IS ALL I'VE GOT

But so much else matters ...fortunately..my side spin was negligible which obviously explains my ability to hit fairways so often...but that prodigious lenght that these kids have is extraordinary.
It was very intersting to see the stats on the Nike tour guys, with Tiger's ball speed in the high 180's being simply unimaginable to me.

[TEPaul]

"Tom - The outfit that did his testing was owned by Tom Sieckmann. He played on the tour for about nine years,"

TonyC:

I remember Tom Sieckman on tour well ( a big tall guy).  

"Anyway he and his brother Jim have this lab at their course in Omaha which is where they did the testing."

That's where the Hurley's took young John. He was "optimized" there obviously (his Dad just called it "testing" to get him "customized" golf clubs). Both young John and his Dad said he did not get an accurate ball speed reading there. Both sort of implied the test did not clock over 200 MPH or something (they think that's why he may not have gotten an accurate reading). In any case Sieckman's lab told them there probably aren't 20-30 people in the world that powerful. His Dad also said this driver he's using was not "customized" (I think he broke that one). This driver is a blue grafaloy shaft and his Dad says he just likes the driver (Titleist).

The interesting thing about his distance to me is some of the time he's only a few yards ahead of his competitors but occasionally he hits it into the next zip code compared to them (those fellow competitors yesterday were more than a bit surprised by 2-3 of his drives. I happened to be out there in a few of the LZs and the fairways were marked off for driving stats. I'd say in neutral conditions he actually carries the ball between 325-340 when he really catches one. I find that hard to believe from anyone but yesterday I actually saw it.

"Hope Mr. Hurley plays well, though, I would be surprised if he made match play. He is just a bit young."

I hope he does too but he does have a bit to learn competing at that level. I tried to get him a couple of really good caddies I knew when I played tournament golf around here but for various reasons that didn't work out. But we did get him a good Merion caddie he likes. I guess like most young guys he does tend to try to max out his irons on approaches and in the practice round at both Merion and PCC he was coming up short too much for my liking. If he misses one it's generally a block right but on Merion's #13 he did hit a real hook with his SW! I'd love to see him make match play but I'm afraid he'll have to hit the ball great, think great and probably get somewhat lucky too---but that's basically what good golf takes anyway. If he can shoot 75 or better at Merion today, I'll be encouraged. The thing about Merion East is strategically there isn't that many places he can use his driving power. PCC is different though. On many of those holes he can air it out. #8 PCC yesterday is going to become complete legend there---no question about it. He hit the ball one yard from the front left green-side bunker that starts just about at the front of the green. From where he teed off that's effectively close to 400 yards!! But I guess that's what a 195+ "ball speed" can do.

I realize there're always these sort of "fish story" distance stories but ask Wayne Morrison about him---he watched him hit a few and even though he has a short backswing Wayne said he couldn't even see his arms and hands they come through so fast.  
 

[Tony_Chapman]

Tom - I'm glad you've taken to this kid. He is quite the player, especially for these parts!!   I will certainly be watching for him today and tomorrow. You say he is at Merion today -- I couldn't quite tell from the USGA website??

Thanks!!

Also, if you watch John try to get over to Nate Lashley for a couple of holes too. He is a very nice player from another small Nebraska town.