Greywalls & The Kingsley Club

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I found it easier to get to Marquette than Mullen. Baltimore to Milwaukee to Marquette = piece of cake. I then drove to Harbor Springs, then Traverse City so it was no problem at all. Lots of good golf along the way as compared to Nebraska.

I am glad you liked Greywalls as I thought it was terrific as well. I really hope it continues to get people there to play it. I am glad I have a client there so I will get back every summer.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

If one were to fly the route to Milwaukee is likely best. I can see people coming via air transport to Minneapolis if necessary.

My point was that if one were to go by car the trek can be a tough one. Anyone from points east and south would have a haul just getting through the lower portion of MI before crossing the bridge. After that it's a solid three-hour haul at no more than 60 MPH for the bulk of the trip.

If you want to head to Sand Hills you can boogie at 80-85 MPH at minimum on stretches of I-76 and I-80. Four hours from Denver or Omaha flies much faster than handling the local and state roads in and around the Marquette area.

Next time I make my way out there I'll be sure to fly to Milwaukee because you are right there is plenty of good golf between the two points.

[Jeff_Mingay]

There's a direct Northwest Airlines flight to Marquette from Detroit as well.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Even if you drive from Detroit which is long, there are plaenty of good golf up through Traverse City which you will not have going to Sand Hills. If you have the time, either route is good and the drive to Marquette is a little more scenic than Nebraska too .

[Matt_Ward]

When Tom Doak's newest Colorado design opens there will be one more golf option on the way from Denver to the North Platte area.

One other thing -- does anyone know the drive time from Duluth, MN to Marquette, MI? I have a good friend who will be visiting the area shortly.

[cary lichtenstein]

Matt:

The drive time is too long, about 7 hours. Bette and I are doing the trip as follows:

We fly into Duluth from Denver
Play Giants Ridge
Then Play Classic Madden
Drive to Minn and Fly to Traverse City
Drive to Arcadia Bluffs
Drive to True North
Drive to Grey Walls
Fly back to Minn from Marquette

Cost of flights was reason and we avoided all the long drives. We are having a guy drive our car from Snowmass to Duluth, and that avoids a 2 day drive. Whew!!!!!!!!!

[Brian_Sleeman]

From Duluth to Marquette is no more than 5 hours - I've done it in roughly four hours each time I've made the trip, not going more than 6 or 7 miles over the speed limit.  The winter would be another story altogether...

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I guess the main difference I found between Kingsley and Greywalls this summer was the consistancy of the holes.   I may have different taste than some here, but I just found too many holes at Greywalls that I didnt feel were up to the standard of the rest of them.  I loved some of the holes, but some just didnt do much for me.   Kingsley on the other hand kept my interest on nearly every hole.

Dont get me wrong I found Greywalls to be enjoyable, but not in the same league as Kingsley.

Since no one else has posted any pics here they are for you viewing pleasure...

Kingsley Club's Par 5 first hole.  Alternate fairways, center bunker.


Kingsley Club's Par 3 5th hole.  Great use of the land.  Reminded me of links course hole.  Note the other flag behind the green.


7th hole a great setting from the tee box.


Kingsley Club's Par 3 9th hole.  Great variety from the multiple tee box angles.  Neat hole, Love the understated clubhouse on the hill.


Kingsley's Par 4 12th hole from the tee


Hole location tucked behind the hills and bunkering on the 18th hole at Kingsley.


And now on to Greywalls the next day.  (and yes it is a haul).

Greywalls' first hole.  The contouring in the fairway reminds me of the 8th at Crystal Downs.  A great opening hole (especially at dusk when the contours really pop out).


Par 4 4th hole.  This one of the holes that I wasnt crazy about.  Just didnt like how the tee shot set up, and the green site was pretty plain.


The stunning setting of the Par 3 6th hole at Greywalls.


The view from behind the green of the Par 4 7th hole looking back up the fairway.  A very dramatic hole.


Greywalls 9th hole.  As you can probably see I didnt get to see these dramatic views of the lake that day that others have talked about on here.


Par 4 11th hole.


I think it was Matt that mentioned that the 18th is not a pushover.  And he is right, but I found it to be one of the most bland greensites I have ever seen, let alone to be the finishing hole.   Just not a hole that would cause any sense of excitement for the finishing hole, and that is too bad.   The green is flat, perfectly round, and there is little to no movement to the land anywhere near the green site.  


Well worth the drive, but then again I dont mind a good drive to get to a golf course.

[Jeff_Mingay]

The eighteenth at Greywalls is a very unique hole; apparently the cause of some serious discussion, which is an excellent quality!

Personally, I love the look of the green site. Mike literally took what he was given, using the rock piles behind the green to frame the putting surface beautifully.

Trying to manufacture something there, at eighteen, to measure up with the drama throughout the rest of the course would have been a mistake, in my opinion.

Still, it took guts to leave things as simple as they appear. My hat's off to Mike on this one.  

[Matt_Ward]

Turboe --

Specifically what holes at Greywalls were not at the same high level as The Kingsley Club. Do you believe Kingsley is bulletproof -- because I think holes like 10 and 11 are a bit of a dropoff from the air tight qualities you get with the front nine there.

I have to say you vastly underrated the 9th hole as one of the best -400 yard holes in America. The tee shot is beautifully done and when you make the walk off the tee to the elevated fairway and see Lake Superior in the background and know full well how exacting the approach shot needs to be I believe you conclude the front half in grand style.

I will say this though about Greywalls -- there are a few holes where the tee game element is not as uniquely define or crafted as the green sites. The short 10th hole is a good example -- plenty of wonderful contours by the green -- but the tee shot is just your garden variety grip and rip type. The same holds true for the par-4 12th. Could have been better defined even though it's long. As fast as I write that I have to say the par-4 11th is a jewel of a hole -- I was hoping the tee game areas would be in the line of protection -- maybe not as intense mind you -- but of that style.

I'm also not enamored with the closing holes at Kingsley after you get past the sensational 15th. Don't get me wrong -- I;m not all suggesting or implying that the final three holes at Kingsley are poor but the finishing trio was more a nice neat wrap-up and not the tour de force style you see with so many there.

One other thing -- would it not be fair to say that Greywalls has the better terrain and that the routing brought forward by DeVries is more complex and accomplished with his latest effort in Marquette than what you see with Kingley.

Many thanks for answering partner ...

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

It is late so this will be short, but from memory here goes...

Turboe --

Specifically what holes at Greywalls were not at the same high level as The Kingsley Club. Do you believe Kingsley is bulletproof -- because I think holes like 10 and 11 are a bit of a dropoff from the air tight qualities you get with the front nine there.

I wasnt too keen on the 4th hole at all at Greywalls.  I also was not enamored with the tee shot at 8th or 10th as you mentioned.  Also wasnt crazy about 12th hole (I think it was) and as I mentioned I didnt like the 18th.  No I certainly dont think Kingsley is "bullet proof" but just thought the consistancy of the quality of holes was higher to me.  I concur with your thoughts but I didnt dislike any holes at Kingsley.

I have to say you vastly underrated the 9th hole as one of the best -400 yard holes in America. The tee shot is beautifully done and when you make the walk off the tee to the elevated fairway and see Lake Superior in the background and know full well how exacting the approach shot needs to be I believe you conclude the front half in grand style.

Agreed, and I think I mentioned that I enjoyed the hole.  I also mentioned on the day I was there you couldnt see Lake Superior at all due to the haze so I you couldnt even tell that there was a lake view on that hole.  I enjoyed it just the same based only on its strategic merits.

That all for tonight, I must get some sleep.

[Matt_Ward]

What makes Greywalls so compelling to me is the nature and variety of the greensites and the plethora of excellent pin placements you find when playing.

Like I said before you have some really superb holes -- the 2nd for me is just one of several.

At 425 yards the hole features a blind landing area for the tee shot and it's a really cool feature because it does make you a bit uncomfortable when standing back on the tee.

The hole favors a slight fade and I like the idea that both distance and shot control (here a fade) is called for by the architect.

The green site is simply delicious stuff. You have two tier green that blends so smoothly between the levels. This is not one of those hard-edged multi-tier pads that are so abrupt to be completely out of place.

If you lay back off the tee the second shot will be a longer one and more demanding to hold.

When the pin is on the left side -- especiall in the front left you will face a hole that will never suffer any fools.

Greywalls is indeed a worthy follow-up by Mike DeVries -- and frankly I am amazed that certain people who have been there have failed to acknowledge the sheer qualities it has in abundance thus far.

[Mike_DeVries]

Hi All!

Back from an extreme amount of travelling and saw the post.  Thanks for the discussion about the 2 courses.  I don't have the time to follow up to the comments right now, but hope to have much discussion with those who come up to Greywalls on the 10th for the GCA outing there.

All the best,

Mike

[John Morrissett]

Last weekend I played a couple of more rounds at Greywalls (the first rounds since my two there in May), and if anything I am more anxious than ever to return.  

After my May visit, I thought I had a decent "understanding" of the way to play the course.  After this last visit, I'm less certain than ever, especially about the play off many of the tees.  (For that reason I would take issue with Matt's comments about the tee game, although his view might change with another visit by him, as that was the case with me.)

From the tee you it is reasonable to hit driver on every par 4 and 5 -- something that is very good, as I am not a fan of holes that don't even give you that option, even if you hit a "perfect" shot with a driver.  However, there are a good many of those holes (about half) where you could make an argument for playing a shorter club.  Right away, that knowledge puts doubt in your mind when you have driver in your hand.  It was very interesting playing with one of the better players at the club, as I often wondered why in the world I was playing driver on a hole when he was hitting something less.

Take the 11th hole, for example: Do you play 3-wood or so short of the central bunker, leaving yourself with a completely blind 150 yard approach, or do you try to hit driver left or right of that central bunker?  The left side "looks" easier to find, but you might run into one of the left bunkers, while it would take a big hit to get past the hill on the right (and you are thinking about the trees on the right as well)?  After four rounds, I don't know what the best play is.  I have a suspicion that I would take the conservative route in a stroke play event but one of the others in a match or a friendly round.

Some comments on other tee shots (and I could easily talk about each one on the course): While the 12th fairway looks awfully inviting (and it is), you seem just a bit off balance by that stage in the round as it is perhaps the first friendly - looking tee shot and the tee shot that looks the most "familiar" to you (without the rock, great elevation changes, heaving fairway, etc.).  Because of this sense of freedom and the fact that the hole is so long and you feel the need to bust one in order to reach the green with an iron, I found myself swinging too hard, finding a clump of trees on the left in two of my four rounds.

The tee shot on the 10th hole is pretty interesting as well.  I imagine over time you learn to be disciplined off the tee and not play driver, even though it looks as though there is ample room for it (esp. down the right).  True, by going down the left side you can get fairly close to the green (within 40 or so yards of the front edge), but if you play driver down the right side and the hole is on the right, you are faced with a very tough little pitch over the rocky knob to a tough green; you would likely be better off a full 100 yards away (but then you have to think about the little outcropping smack in the middle of the shorter drive zone.

As much as I love the view from the 1st tee, I may like the view from behind the green, looking back up the hole, even more, as I love that green site and complex so much.  The view looking back up the hole captures all the undulations.  (Speaking of which, isn't it fun just to walk a wild fairway??)

More comments to follow . . .

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  I liked the 10th and 11th holes as much as anything at The Kingsley Club.  Proving, I guess, that great minds do not think alike.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom / John :

The issue with the lacking of tee shot details is clearly present at the 10th.

John -- I think you are highlighting aspects of the hole thjat were far less in terms of the tee dimension than you find with other holes. Good players with some length will simply blow it up the left side with impunity. There is little risk involved and plenty of gain. Even if you push the shot a tad right you are not facing a herculean shot unless the pin is placed on the far left side of the slope that cuts across the hole. If the pin were cut on that side then blowing it up the right side will give you a much better angle.

That completely changes with the 11th hole which is clearly one of the better holes you can play -- IMHO -- on par with the solid nature of the 9th hole. Both are well done holes that play less than 400 yards. The differences between the 10th and 11th are no less than day and night.

The rest of the tee game element -- the 12th is clearly lacking in terms of strategic choices to be made. I'm not saying the hole is a pushover -- not by any means. But, the sheer definition you find with some of the other holes -- like the 2nd, is not at the same level.

John, you are no doubt right that a subsequent revisit to the course may change my mind. We shall see when that happens.

P.S. One other thing -- taking driver on the 11th is a big time risk unless you hit it correctly and go cover the carry of the right fairway bunker (I believe it's no less than 285 yards to carry). It's a superb hole and when the pin is all the way in the rear area the hole really shines.

[Dan_Lucas]

John and Matt,

You two are describing a shortcoming in many of the course and hole reviews that I find on this site. You cannot review a quality golf course based on playing it once IMHO. Great courses reveal their quality with every trip around. Pin positions, wind direction, playing conditions and the state of the individuals game change the way courses play on an everyday basis.

The most criticized holes at TKC (on this site) are 10, 11 and 18 for not matching the quality of the others. When you have played them repeatedly, these holes are every bit of the test of any hole here.

Mike DeVries likes to have an "ebb and flow" to the round. With holes that change the pace and lull the player into a false sense of security when in effect his full concentration is still required. Thus while #10 and 11 do not have the dramatic impact standing on the tee an imprecise effort will leave you scratching your head wondering how you managed to make double. I have played at Kingsley as much as anyone and every time out it reveals more to me. I have no doubt (not having played it yet) that #18 at Greywalls is the same as 10 & 11 here, minimal WOW factor but a tough test.  

This is why I think rating should be done only after playing something multiple times. If a course plays the same way three different times, either you have been very unlucky or it is not a golf course I would want to play on an everyday basis.

[PThomas]

I got to enjoy TKC for the first time yesterday on a perfect weather day with Joe Hancock, Mike Devries and the courses's superintendent, Dan, yesterday

what a treat! what a fun course!   talk about the ground game, which is esp magnified with the contours around the greens!   I had at least two chip shots that I thought I hit pretty darn well - until one took a 90degree turn and ran off the green 20 yards, which one of my playing partners duplicated - and the other caught a slope and left me with a 35footer !

I earlier this year , after I had toured the course but not played it - started a thread on the 9th hole at TKC, wondering if it was too penal..after playing yesterday my answer is no...2 in our group hit and held the green, while Joe and I hit it --- but had our balls slide down the slope to the right (after which Joe perfectly played an unbelievable running chip 10 feet to the right of the pin which caught the slope and stopped 3 feet below the hole!)...certainly a demanding hole, but one which will accept a good shot...#2 also a real tester, one which I personally would need to play a few more times before I could hopefully figure it out!

so many other good holes out there, like 13, the GREAT short par 4....the course makes you think before you hit..it is not simply a game of aim down the middle and at the green....imho, this is one of the signs of a great golf course

great scale and views out there as well...it must be even more beautiful when the leaves begin to turn

as for 10 and 11...10 is a BIT of a breather hole - but you still must avoid the trees on the right and bunkers left...and a 250 yard drive will still leave you with about 150 yards to another tricky green

if that is a breather, then 11 definitely isn't , I think...175 yards to a green that slopes off on both sides

a thrilling course, Congrats to Mike and Dan for the efforts there....Mike is  a great funny guy, so I am looking froward to seeing him next week at Greywalls too

if you get the chance to play you must DEFINITELY experience TKC

[John Morrissett]

Dan --

I hope you're doing well.  I agree (even though I wrote the Kingsley profile after just one round!).  In recent years I have become a big believer in playing a course two or three times, even though I'm still shortchanging it with regard to seasons, turf conditions, etc.  Multiple visits are a great luxury if possible.

Matt --

The 10th and 11th holes at Greywalls are a terrific pair of holes in how they illustrate two different types of strategic architecture: One where the player is forced by the architect to make decisions (as with the 11th) and one where the player needs to think for himself about how best to play a hole (even though the player may not know he needs to think!).  Westward Ho! is my favorite example of the latter, as there is often so much room there without an "obvious" way to play a hole that the player needs to think hard about how to get from the tee to the green.  Of course, a mix of the two types of hole is ideal, with The Old Course being the best example.

I'm surprised by your comments on the 10th, as there is plenty of trouble (trees and tall rough) left of the fairway.
I know - that's where I was in my last round and made 6 without playing a bad subsequent shot.  With a driver it is possible to go too far right as well, into the trees beyond where the 9th and 10th fairways join.  

Maybe it's just a commentary on my wedge game, but I find a 50 yard pitch from the right side of the fairway to a right or rear hole location daunting, as you have an awfully small effective target and an awkward angle.  True, you won't make 6 from there, but you have to hit a very good pitch (or recovery shot/long putt) to make 4 from there.

As for the 12th, again I think the contrast of that drive with the others is intriguing and will catch some players off guard.  It is not devoid of strategy, as you would like to drive it right when the hole is on that small shelf behind the left bunker, and you want to drive it left when the hole is on the right half of the green, as that way you can use the right to left slope of the right side of the green better.

 

[Tommy_Naccarato]

There's nothing better in the world and Golf Club Atlas then a John Morrissett sighting!

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Fair point on multiple plays -- just how many precise visits are the threshold before any comments can be made?

If that's the case then others here on GCA -- some of whom who have published comprehensive books on courses throughout the globe would have to hold their comments in check until they return.

I don't doubt multiple visits can certainly provide a deeper assessment of the inner aspects of any design but that doesn't mean that initial impressions have to be completely cast aside as not being relevant or thorough in their analysis.

In many ways -- the person doing the review can be just as important as the number of visits. Some people can see things very clearly after one visit while others may need multiple visits to see them. Just food for thought.

P.S. Dan -- the 18th at Greywalls lacks the closing panache that you get from the bulk of the holes there. The choke point feature at the 219 yardage mark is more "either or" type golf that flies in the face of the varying challenge / angles that make Greywalls so much fun to play. You also have a lackluster area immediately near the green -- although the "hump" that is located in the heart of the putting surface is something you need to reckon with on your approach. It's not a bad hole but it could be a bit more sophisticated -- as so many other holes at Greywalls -- are.

John M:

The 10th is a breather hole -- my point was that it simply allows the bigger hitters to unload with little to check the impulse in pulling out the big stick.

Yes, the green is well done -- the shelf that cuts off the lower right from the side left is well done by Mike DeVries. However, if you take the tee shot up the left side there is little between the tee and the player to cause any major heartburn.

The 11th is simply one of the best 400 yard length holes in the USA. The range of options is clearly present and along with the superb 9th you have holes that require a healthy marriage between brain and muscle when pulling the trigger off the tee and with your approach.

John -- the 12th is a fine hole -- I see what you are saying but I'm not buying it. Likely, a second visit to the course will confirm to me who has the better understanding of the hole. It's no doubt a demanding hole but I don't see the architecture there as compelling in terms of what else is clearly present when playing.

[Joe Hancock]

If that's the case then others here on GCA -- some of whom who have published comprehensive books on courses throughout the globe would have to hold their comments in check until they return.

Isn't this from one who ALWAYS says experience leads to superior intellect?

.....there is little between the tee and the player to cause any major heartburn.

Show me a course with 18 holes of "major heartburn" and I'll show you a course I don't need to play.

Likely, a second visit to the course will confirm to me who has the better understanding of the hole.

Matt, go ahead and give John his pat on the back now...no need to wait until you get back to Greywalls.

Matt, I'm just bustin' your chops....kind of.

Joe

[Matt_Ward]

Joe:

You need to take some chill time partner. Yes, experience is clearly important but my reference to that was when someone is going to make ratings of different courses but doesn't have the depth of actual courses played to make the kind of cross comparisons that are needed.

Joe -- I never said there were 18 holes of heartburn at Greywalls. When I use the word "heartburn" I am not suggesting or favoring holes that exhibit a totality towards the "either or" style of design. The 10th is simply a pedestrian hole off the tee -- yes -- the greensite is well done but when you compare the tee game strategic aspects with say the 9th an 11th the absence at the 10th is no less than a cavity that needs to be filled IMHO.

I stand on what I said -- the person doing the review can make for a huge difference provided they have the mind and eyes for the details. Some people may need multiple visits in order to get that closeness in terms of what a course offers.

I don't want to minimize the fact that playing a course several times will give you a much clearer sense -- however --I am not about to concede that with the right person doing the observation the gist of what makes a course so unique can be seen quite clearly on a number of fronts -- maybe not 100% but far more than some might think.

Joe -- I hope you get where I'm coming from -- kind of -- to use your words.

[Joe Hancock]

Joe:

You need to take some chill time partner.

Matt,

I played 36 at the Mines GC on Tuesday and 18 at Kingsley on Thursday. Today, I went canoeing with my family. What would you recommend for my chill time?

Don't take it as special treatment if I take your blanket statements and analogies to task. If I percieve a flaw in logic, I will question it no matter who it is.

As to your heartburn comment...I didn't say you implied EVERY hole caused heartburn. You used the term to describe why you thought it was a breather hole. So, I logically concluded that your litmus test for a test of golf is heartburn. If that isn't what you wrote, then my apologies. If it is what you wrote, then I stand by comment that it isn't what I look for in a course....18 holes of heartburn.

Now, I need to order pizza for my family, then I will chill.

Joe

[John Morrissett]

Tommy --

We need to get you up to Marquette so you can set the record straight.  

Matt --

I'm not so sure the 10th is a "breather."  "Sleeper" may be a better description.  For example, I would not be surprised if in club events the 10th hole has a higher atroke avergage than the 11th.

With your obersvation that "However, if you take the tee shot up the left side there is little between the tee and the player to cause any major heartburn," I assume you mean between the tee and the "green."  If so, that's my point about the tee shot being strategic!  If you drive up the left (more dangerous) side, you are rewarded with a better approach to the green - isn't that a good example of strategic golf?

With the 18th, I think the gathering effect in the landing area makes the fairway play wider off the tee than it looks.  The green site is minimalism unchecked, something I thought would be applauded on this site.  It was originally a flat site, so it remains a flat site.  Would we rather there be huge bunkers, mounds, etc. that are clearly artificial?

The 18th is a hole of contrasts, with the tumbling drive zone and the flat green site (although not flat green).  If the score card labeled it a par 4, most people would think it's a clever finisher; why should the number on a piece of paper affect our views?