Atlantic City

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
The April 1920 issue of Golf Illustrated announced CC of AC was currently under construction.

[wsmorrison]

I don't know if the April 1920 Golf Illustrated was referring to the reworking by Park or something else less significant.  

If it was Park they were referring to, his work sure didn't last long as Flynn came in only three years afterwards.  Yardage wasn't a factor as the courses were approximately the same length with the Flynn course slightly shorter.

[astavrides]

Public play on Monday to Thursday is $150

It's $175 now.

[TEPaul]

"It's $175 now."

Discount that by about $100 and I might bite---but probably not.  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
The American representatives of Carter's--Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller--advertised their involvment in the reconstruction of CC of AC in October 1919. In fact the ad included a photo of the work in progress. Peterson, Sinclaire and Miller were affiliated with Willie Park (In Novemeber they advertised their work at Baltimore and in December Battle Creek, both WP II designs).

I would not be surprised to find Flynn had some relation to P, S and M as well.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Were Patterson, Sinclaire and Miller US representatives of Carter's Seed Company?

If so, it sure would be interesting to see if Flynn had something to do with them.

But not knowing anything about them, I'd tend to doubt that. Have you ever read any of those so-called "agronomy letters" between the Wilsons and Piper and Oakley?

Flynn was sort of their on the ground guy. There was a loose collaboration of seed experimenters including people like Harban in DC and a few others regionally.

It looks like they were sort of trying to do their own thing around that time perhaps independent of the seed merchants. It wasn't long before that that it looks like those guys had sort of begun to blame the seed merchants for packaging everything and anything in their seed bags probably under the theory that something would have to grow. As one can imagine now that could create some real problems.

It looks like those few (Wilsons, Flynn, Toomey, Piper Oakley, Harban and a few others) were trying to promote bent on their own. Matter of fact Toomey invented some kind of a machine and tried to corner the bent market but they disabused him of that.

And then there was that huge plot in Rhode Island or Conn. of a pure bent that they were all trying to get their hands on.The plot was something like 1000 acres and belonged to one of their big-time friends---someone like one of the Whitneys or such.

[wsmorrison]

The Philadelphia Seed Company was used by Flynn at some places where he worked, including The Creek.  Wilson and Flynn also used the Henry Nungesser & Company, J.M. Thorburn & Company and  Stumpp & Walter who got their Rhode Island Bent from a total of 1000-acres on Patience and Prudence Islands--owned by Harry Payne Whitney.

[TEPaul]

Come on Wayne, just like Tom MacWood you're just making up the names of some of those seed companies because they sound cool, aren't you? Tell him the technical names of some of the bugs and worms and critters Hugh Wilson found at Merion East and packaged up and sent on the night train down to Piper and Oakley in D.C. Did you hear me ask Matt Shaeffer if he'd like to read Wilson, Piper and Oakley "agronomy letters" and he said he'd love to and that he felt they had all the makings of being a national best-seller.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne/TE
Wasn't Merion under the Carter's umbrella?

How much of Park/Flynn's CC of AC survived in the 1990's, pre-Doak? Based upon what you know of the course in the 1920's, would you have recommended it be restored (if that was possible)? And why or why not?

[TEPaul]

Tom:

Regarding the Carter thing---I have no idea. Maybe Wayne does. Why would a Carter seed connection to Flynn interest you anyway?

Regarding ACCC before and after Doak, I may not be the best to ask. I only played the place a couple of times before the Doak project maybe a couple of times in the last 20 years. One time was in the GAP championship of club champions and I just remember I played there. That was before my interest in architecture and I wasn't much good at competing and really observing load of architectural details.

All I can say is the course looks and plays so much more interesting now. In my mind there's no quesiton of that at all. ACCC always had a great aura about it----there was so much tradition of one kind or another about the club and course. But honestly the course back then was pretty bland---as it goes around here. At least that was my opinion before Doak. Now the course still maintains that special coziness it always had but it's just a lot more interesting to play now. There's just this sort of old fashioned aura to the place and to the course still today.

"How much of Park/Flynn's CC of AC survived in the 1990's, pre-Doak?"

That I couldn't say. I don't think I saw the course before about 1985. The one who could completely answer all that though is Doug Fraser.

[John_Cullum]

Rhode Island Bent from a total of 1000-acres on Patience and Prudence Islands--

Damn, that sounds like a great place. Where is it? How much is property there?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...it appears that I need to go back down there.

I played it B.D. (before Doak) and really enjoyed it, but many holes were flattish and bland, to be honest.  It was only on some of the holes that ran out to the bay where the blood got pumping, although I recall the inland 3rd and 17th as two really fine holes.

Besides, fall is coming and I bet the course will play great with a nice cool breeze coming off the water.

[TEPaul]

Ah, for Christ sakes redanman, I can tell you which holes those are in my sleep which is what I'm about to do. Those bunkers look pretty fine to me but maybe someone should tell Doak & Co and ACCC too that the course was a Flynn course not a Tillinghast!  

Did you know that apparently Toomey and Flynn's construciton arm may've done some work for Tillinghast? Maybe Tillinghast did some work for Flynn at ACCC. Maybe he even did some work for Doak at ACCC.  

[Gordon Oneil]

fantastic pics!

[Gerry B]

great photos - and one ugly practice swing

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
How much of Park/Flynn's CC of AC survived into the 1990's...pre-Doak?

Based upon what you know of the course in the 1920's, would you have recommended it be restored (if that was possible)? And why or why not?

[wsmorrison]

Except for a few changes necessitated by the sale of some property for homesites that Tom Doak mentioned previously, I don't believe much was changed between Flynn and Doak.

Are you asking me if it should have been restored to the Flynn as of the early 1920s?  That would require buying back the area of the Blue nine, moving people out of their homes, and restoring these holes and the holes the Frasers changed.  I don't see why this would have been a worthwhile effort.  It certainly would have cost a lot of money.

Do I think the undulating sandy waste areas should have been returned?  They were lost long ago more than likely due to expense and changing tastes.  Yes, I do think they would have made a very nice feature in harmony with the Flynn work and the Doak work.  I would have strongly recommended the reincorporation of these features.  Were there any materials to suggest these existed available to Tom Doak?  I don't think so.  But the work by Craig Disher and Dan Wexler since make this more of a reality.  Did Tom or anyone know the exsitence of the Hagley collection?  I doubt it.  But now it is far more widely known.

The changes Tom Doak made were improvements to the playability and agronomics of the course.  I don't think there is anything that was done that detracted from the golf nor the history of the course.  It was being changed long before Flynn got there and there's nothing wrong with the changes made by Doak.  I would have recommended, not that anyone would listen, that the sandy waste areas be restored.  I certainly would have agreed that contours be added to the approaches and the fill used to raise fairways on the back nine.  I don't know if I would have raised the 12th green--I think it was done by Doak.  But then again, I don't know if there were compelling reasons to do so.

Honestly, Tom.  I'd have to be far more involved or informed of the processes that took place to fairly answer what if anything should or could be restored.  I never saw the course before Tom Doak's work was complete.  Before you judge, you should see the work on site and compare to the before and after.  Its hard to know about the agronomic and hydrological issues without being on site and these had such an impact on what needed to be done.

As to the changes between Flynn and Doak, I don't know the inside scoop on why the changes were made by the Frasers.  It was their course, and they are far better informed than I am on the dynamics in play.  It would be unfair for me to comment without knowing more.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Tom did not do a restoration at ACC.  I think that is pretty clear.  He even said so in his post and must have had some reason to believe that was the right decision.

My feeling to address Tom MacWood’s question is that not all courses should be restored, but every course deserves at least a good look to determine what was once there.  Restoration for the sake of restoration is absurd.  Restoring a golf course to something that is inferior to what is there now is ridiculous.  The key is to study what the original design/design intent was to begin with and then compare that to what currently exists.  After presenting this research to the course members/owners, it is then up to them to decide how they would like to proceed.  

When I first visited Atlantic City after it was redesigned by Tom, I felt it was strange walking around the clubhouse after my round.  At the time (I don’t know if things have changed since then) there were pictures everywhere of the old course/design and lots of history/photos about tournaments, etc.  Inside was a museum and outside was a new golf course.  

Obviously Tom believed (as he stated above) that this was one of those designs not worth restoring.  He came by that decision somehow.  Right or wrong, it’s always a judgment call that someone has to make.  The key to making the right decision is IMHO, is to be sure they have all the information at hand.
Mark  

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I was referring to the "Flynn Tournament 18", not the Blue 9.

Would it have been possible to restore? In other words was the land that the Flynn 18 occupied still available or was some of it converted to houses, roads or any other use? Did the bones of Park/Flynn's course survive into the 1990's?

Was the Flynn Tournament 18 worthy of complete restoration based on the quality of the design?

 

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I don't think I ever said Tom Doak restored ACCC (formerly known as CCAC).  I remarked about his changes and improvements, hardly terms used in restorations.  

From flat fairways and approaches to contours was a significant improvement.  The fact that fill taken from the hollowed out areas were used elsewhere makes the form that followed function an enhancement.

I've been most everywhere in the clubhouse.  There are numerous portrait photographs, I didn't see anything like the number of photographs of the course and design you referred to.  I guess they were moved or removed.  Of what I saw, there was nothing to help guide a restoration/renovation process.

It seems clear from talking to people that should know that there were some definite things the owners wanted done.  I was not privy to much information so how can I comment in a worthwhile manner?  On their own merits, do I like the changes made to holes 10 (no), the removal of the old 11th (not sure), changes to the old 12th-current 11th (yes), current 12th (I think so), lengthening of the 13th (yes), new 14th (I think not) and changes to 18 (yes)?  

Tom MacWood, what do you think of these changes?  Would you have kept things intact?   The need to raise the fairways on the back nine was a primary factor in a lot that was done.  What of the environmental issues and tradeoffs that were necessary?

Tom Doak's decisions were, from my perspective, excellent.  I think it impossible to restore to the point Tom MacWood would consider Flynn.  Frankly, it was wise not to, even if he could.  The golf course plays better than it did.  It is more interesting and works better agronomically.  

The fact also remains that Tom Doak can do more than Flynn could regarding grading and engineering in 1922.  A man like Flynn would, in my opinion, make use of everything available to him to make the best course he could.  Tom Doak's work fits in very well with this method of operation.

[wsmorrison]

As to the Tournament 18, I think the comments I made in the prior post apply.  Not all the land was available.  There were access roads and buildings put up including the residence of a speaker at one of GCA.com's best gatherings.

A majority of Flynn's design remained however.  This was improved and in my mind is better than restoration.  I would have pushed for more of the original sandy waste areas to the extent they existed in Flynn's day.

"Was the Flynn Tournament 18 worthy of complete restoration based on the quality of the design? "

It was an excellent golf course that could have been improved today.  I'm glad it was.  Was everything done perfectly?  Its hard to say without being more fully informed.  At some point it is subjective.  Obviously your criteria is different than mine.  I don't hold to the purist dictates to the same degree that you do.  Sometimes, yes.  But I seem to have more flexibility.

Is it an absolute delight to play and a golf experience very different from other shore courses and in the district?  YES.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I bet most of those photos, etc. were removed.  As I said, I was there quite a long time ago (right after it was re-opened).  I really liked the golf course but it was odd walking around the clubhouse afterwards.  

Money surely had something to do with what Flynn designed.  If they could build Lido, they could do most anything, even back then if they wanted to.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

You're right about money dictating to Flynn what he could do at Atlantic City.  He was limited.  This was not a Carte Blanche project meant to appeal to the sizeable egos of all involved from architect to prospective members (national and international) and investors.  This was meant to be a private club for Philadelphia area golfers so they could play winter golf.  The economic decisions worked for ACCC and was the root of the demise of Lido.

Thankfully, Flynn's Lido-like effort, Indian Creek, still exists today.  It is a wonder of engineering and design meant to look completely natural with the exception of the greens and tees.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
I know next nothing about Park/Flynn's original course...that is why I'm asking for your impressions.

Which holes (or parts of holes) were lost?

I'm not asking for you to compare the Doak course to the Flynn course...I'm asking for your thoughts on the quality of the original Flynn course. And I'm not asking you to answer the question through the prisom of my preferences (my perceived preferences anyway)....I'm seeking the opinion of a Flynn expert who has studied his work and presumably knows which of his courses were special and which of his designs were his best (and worthy of preserving/restoring).

You said it was an excellent course, but certainly one that could have used improving. What were its flaws, and do you think those flaws kept it from being considered among Flynn's best designs?

 

[wsmorrison]

I think the ACCC course was very good when Flynn redesigned it.  The routing was good from the start so that the wind had a profound effect on strategy.  In my mind, Flynn's hazards were more thoughtful than prior strategies as regards incorporating the wind in the placement.

The interrupted fairways and large undulating sand waste areas are reminiscent of Pine Valley and specifically the 12th-15th and maybe 17th that Flynn built with the Wilsons at PVGC according to Crump's general design wishes.

This course is important to Flynn's portfolio as it was a bit of a precursor for his future work on seasides like Boca Raton, Indian Creek, Kittansett and Shinnecock Hills.

In my opinion, its flaws were flat fairways and approaches in some spots and flooding on the back nine.  The Doak work took care of these two important issues.

As a redesign with a retained routing I don't think we can consider this one of his tour de force design efforts.  A lot was inherited and who knows what his budget was.  We do know that the course was instrumental in championship golf in America and was a course where Crump, Wilson, Flynn, Tillinghast and likely Thomas got together.  In so many ways this course is tied to the history of golf around Philadelphia and America.  Is it one of Flynn's best?  I'd say no.  But it is very fine and worth maintaining where it makes sense and improving where it makes sense.  I think this was accomplished.

The book will address the differences and lost holes.  I have to get back to my writing.  Tom, feel free to call me later if you want to discuss.