Late Tee Times at Baltusrol ...

[Matt_Ward]

The PGA deserves plenty of credit in selecting Baltusrol and in having a first rate event, however, there is one element that needs to be addressed in future event.

Late tee times.

The last group on Sunday went off at 3:00 PM and the idea that thunderstorm possibilities were widely "scattered" as defined by the PGA is really a big time stretch as rains fell in just about all locations in and around the club throughout the week.

The idea that the last group could complete the full 18 holes plus have sufficient time for a three-hole aggregate playoff is really hard to believe.

I fully understand the relationship between the PGA and CBS. Clearly, both groups need to reassess the value of such a vbery late tee time when the month ofAugust doesn't permit that much daylight -- certainly as late as when the US Open is played in June.

After the play was suspended for the day at 6:35 PM on Sunday the PGA brought into the media tent Kerry Haigh -- Tournament Director for the event. Kerry and his folks do a first rate job but his answer to my direct question was a big time stretch and a clear indication that a corporate answer was the only one going to come forward.

Q: After the first suspension, did you really honestly believe that you could have gotten play in and also have room for a playoff? Do you actually believe that?

A: We absolutely could have got in play in -- yes. I think we may have been tight onm tight on the playoff, but we could certainly have got in play in.

FYI -- Play was suspended at 6:35 PM on Sunday and total darkness in NJ at that time of year is no later than 8:00 PM. No less than Phil Mickelson raised this issue the day before when players barely got the round completed.

Keep in mind players were still completing the 14th hole when play was suspended -- and the three-hole playoff would take no less than 45 minutes, according to Haigh and others.

The PGA could have started play sooner -- say 2:00 PM with the last group. No less than the PGA Tour routinely will switch tee times when adverse weather is a very good possibility.

Plenty of thing went well with this year's PGA -- but it's imperative that the needs of the players and fans attending not take a back seat to the concrete time oriented situation that the PGA and CBS agreed to.

Be curious to what others think on this topic. Thanks ...

[George Pazin]

Probably a bad call on their part, but I'd say they essentially punished themselves. Can't imagine people weren't PO'd and ratings for Monday morning were probably pretty weak.

[PThomas]

probably listening to people from the Gordon Gekko school:  "Greed is good"

and what does the PGA do with all that money anyway?

[JESII]

Matt,

It sppears that Kerry agreed with you re: the playoff, but you cannot schedule these things with the plan being to have a playoff within the normal time constraints of television coverage. I do not know the numbers, but there is clearly a huge discrepancy in the dollars the PGA can charge if their tournament is on air until 7PM so why would they not take advantage of that.

If the players (Mickelson) are so concerned about finishing by a particular time why do they take four hours to play in a twosome?

[JohnV]

If the players (Mickelson) are so concerned about finishing by a particular time why do they take four hours to play in a twosome?

Because there is a group in front of them, all the way to the first group and that group knew it would finish before it got dark.

[JESII]

My point being, John, that the players are the last ones who should complain about potentially not finishing their round due to logistical issues. If the players were involved in TV negotiations they would play for about 1/3rd of what they presently do.

What time do the other majors tee off on Sunday? It would appear only one (the Masters) need be concerned about light for a playoff or delays and if my memory serves me they finish no earlier than 7PM.

[JohnV]

Jim,

I knew the point, I was just saying that Phil was certainly not in a position to do anything about the pace of play that day.

The USGA almost got in trouble like this at Bethpage.  Due to a lightning delay, Tiger had to finish in the dark.  If he hadn't had a secure lead, he might not have wanted to keep going that late.  I believe the Feinstein talks about it in his book on Bethpage and how NBC had a similar influence on tee times as CBS did this time.

Obviously since the US Open has an 18-hole playoff they never have to deal with trying to get the playoff in the same day.

[JESII]

Jim,

Obviously since the US Open has an 18-hole playoff they never have to deal with trying to get the playoff in the same day. And the British has hours more daylight than here in the states so darkness is a non-factor for them as well.

Why does anyone think this is an issue is my question.

[Cliff Hamm]

Matt...agree totally with you.  Haven't been to a major since the PGA at Winged Foot but I recall the last tee time being 2:00 or possibly 2:30.  I was very surprised that at Baltusrol it was 3:00.  Your point about getting a playoff in even without bad weather is totally accurate.  I have been to the Hartford Open (also done by CBS I think) in recent years when they have finished by about 3, yes finished, by moving up tee times a few hours because of the threat of thunderstorms.  They then show it on a tape delay.  I suspect CBS did not want to do this with a major but it really does make sense.

[JESII]

To whom??

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

You fail to understand one very important item -- the PGA Championship is a MAJOR --- not simply another Tour event. Having the players tee off no later than 2:00 PM would have helped matters along.

After the nonsense in having Tiger win the '02 Open at Bethpage under near dark conditions -- remember the flash bulbs going off after he holed out you think people would have learned something.

The PGA can still accomodate the needs of CBS but if you completely forget about the players and the fans there you then lose complete credibility in asserting how much one respects the game.

No start time in any major champioship should be after 2:00 PM local time. Given the fact that one would have to be prepared for a three-hole playoff you cannot expect players to accomplish something when the folks running the show should ultimately know better.

One last thing -- the dollars potentially you lose from a Sunday finish before 7:00 PM is considerably less than the money CBS loses in telecasting the event on Monday and bumping a soap opera or other program (e.g. Judge Judy, etc, etc) that will likely draw more viewers and ad revenue than any golf event. Just keep that in mind too.

[JESII]

Matt

Your argument assumes the length of the delay is fairly predictable, it is not. A forty five minute delay (such as the first one of the day) is extraordinarily short. How can you take into account such uncertainties when planning an event? You have to build in some contingencies and hope for the best. These Monday Morning Quarterback arguments are so painful because the logistics are beyond simply saying "well, we'll probably get two delays tomorrow, one of 45 minutes and the other might threaten the day so we have to get off the golf course as early as possible,. Let's play threesomes off both tees starting at 7AM and have the last group finish by 3PM".[/color]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

[Jim Nugent]

Matt

Your argument assumes the length of the delay is fairly predictable, it is not. A forty five minute delay (such as the first one of the day) is extraordinarily short. How can you take into account such uncertainties when planning an event? You have to build in some contingencies and hope for the best. These Monday Morning Quarterback arguments are so painful because the logistics are beyond simply saying "well, we'll probably get two delays tomorrow, one of 45 minutes and the other might threaten the day so we have to get off the golf course as early as possible,. Let's play threesomes off both tees starting at 7AM and have the last group finish by 3PM".[/color]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

It seems to me Mattīs main argument is that the PGA left itself no cushion when it sent the last group off at 3 pm.  It probably ruled out any chance for a 3-hole playoff, even without weather delays.  

Is there any debate or question about this?  

[JESII]

Yes Jim, there is.

It clearly would have been tight, but that is my point you have to plan these things under a best-case-scenario mindset. In that case they would have been able to finish the final round and play the three hole playoff in daylight and within 20 or 30 minutes of darkness.

[Rick Shefchik]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

The PGA gets paid more upfront by holding the conclusion of its tournament from 5-7 p.m. Sunday evening, because CBS makes more money in those hours -- that's the biggest revenue time slot in television. The network can charge much higher ad rates Sunday evening, and, as redanman alluded to, CBS wants to hold that big golf audience and deliver it directly to "60 Minutes." So, by extension, the PGA gets a higher rights fee from CBS if it agrees to wrap up its tournament as close to 7 p.m. as possible.

[David_Tepper]

I posted this link on the other thread about Sunday at the PGA. Gary Van Sickle's column is worth reading. Here is the link:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/gary_van_sickle/08/14/pga.delay/index.html/

[noonan]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

The PGA gets paid more upfront by holding the conclusion of its tournament from 5-7 p.m. Sunday evening, because CBS makes more money in those hours -- that's the biggest revenue time slot in television. The network can charge much higher ad rates Sunday evening, and, as redanman alluded to, CBS wants to hold that big golf audience and deliver it directly to "60 Minutes." So, by extension, the PGA gets a higher rights fee from CBS if it agrees to wrap up its tournament as close to 7 p.m. as possible.

The most valuable sopt is 8-9pm.

[Rick Shefchik]

Correct -- I was referring to Sunday evening in general, which is what makes the 5-7 lead-in hours so valuable to the network.

[JESII]

David,

Thanks for posting the link, that is an interesting point of view. I do only see it as a point of view though.

The first thing I found compelling is his comment that the PGA did not even discuss tee times with CBS. Would it have made a financial difference? Doubtful, CBS has a business to run as well.

Secondly, since Mickelson wanted to tee off an hour earlier (and thought it his place to make the decision ) would he have made up whatever financial difference there is to the USGA and CBS?

We can all look at this through rose colored glasses[/color], but it is a business proposition. What is the purse for this event? Would the players collectively vote to reduce the purse by an amount commensurate (sp?) with the reduced revenue to the powers that be (PGA and CBS)? If that answer is yes than I'm on board with letting the players have more say in the logistics. Otherwise let the organizers do what they deem best.

True, recognition deserves to be given to the fans that go on-site for these events, but a significantly larger number of people watch from home on their TV and clearly the best time for them to watch is between 5 and 7PM.

[JESII]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

The PGA gets paid more upfront by holding the conclusion of its tournament from 5-7 p.m. Sunday evening, because CBS makes more money in those hours -- that's the biggest revenue time slot in television. The network can charge much higher ad rates Sunday evening, and, as redanman alluded to, CBS wants to hold that big golf audience and deliver it directly to "60 Minutes." So, by extension, the PGA gets a higher rights fee from CBS if it agrees to wrap up its tournament as close to 7 p.m. as possible.

The most valuable sopt is 8-9pm.

I didn't know that at all, wouldn't that be another reason to find as many sites as possible on the west coast to host majors and let them finish at 9 EST? Or are the standard evening shows that much more popular than golf?

p.s. what does sopt mean in Jerry's post?

[Jim Nugent]

If you could, please illustrate for me the specific revenue differences the PGA earns for the different time slots. Break it down into the hours of the day so that we can all see how much more valuable the 5-7pm time slots are. I ask this because I have no idea of the actual numbers and am curious.

The PGA gets paid more upfront by holding the conclusion of its tournament from 5-7 p.m. Sunday evening, because CBS makes more money in those hours -- that's the biggest revenue time slot in television. The network can charge much higher ad rates Sunday evening, and, as redanman alluded to, CBS wants to hold that big golf audience and deliver it directly to "60 Minutes." So, by extension, the PGA gets a higher rights fee from CBS if it agrees to wrap up its tournament as close to 7 p.m. as possible.

The most valuable sopt is 8-9pm.

I didn't know that at all, wouldn't that be another reason to find as many sites as possible on the west coast to host majors and let them finish at 9 EST? Or are the standard evening shows that much more popular than golf?

p.s. what does sopt mean in Jerry's post?

I think itīs a typo for "spot".

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

Glad to hear you understand the simple logistics and time factor relating to sunset -- it's something that must fly over the head of JES II.

You can't send the last group out at 3:00 PM and expect all play to be finished -- plus the possibility of a playoff -- all of this to happen prior to 8:00 PM when there is no daylight expect darkness.

The simpy reality is that the PGA could have rescheduled the tee times and pushed things up an hour. Even with that there was the strong possibility of play being delayed by t-storms that were all around Baltsurol that Sunday.

The worst possible situation is a Monday finish -- the PGA could have takent a number of steps -- steps routinely taken by the PGA Tour -- and finish the event in a timely manner for all concerned.

JES II:

You keep beating your guns about understanding the business side of things. Do you actually believe bumping the PGA to a Monday finish is in anyone's interests? If you believe so then you and I are in two totally different camps.

The common sense approach is a last tee time at 2:00 PM tops. You cannot assume that everything will run like clockwork and that a three-hole playoff will also be able to take place.

Did you not watch the end of the '02 US Open at Bethpage -- they had a 3:30 PM last group tee time and were barely able to finish. Fortunately, playoffs for the US Open are 18-hole affairs.

The conclusion for a Major has to be on Sunday because too much is lost with a Monday finish. The PGA could have admitted as much but decided to dig in its heels. Hopefully, this issue will be resolved in future majors but I'm not convinced the powers-that-be thoroughly understand the dynamics involved and the harm they cause by such correctable errors.

[James Bennett]

The PGA gets paid more upfront by holding the conclusion of its tournament from 5-7 p.m. Sunday evening, because CBS makes more money in those hours -- that's the biggest revenue time slot in television. The network can charge much higher ad rates Sunday evening, and, as redanman alluded to, CBS wants to hold that big golf audience and deliver it directly to "60 Minutes." So, by extension, the PGA gets a higher rights fee from CBS if it agrees to wrap up its tournament as close to 7 p.m. as possible.

I understand that the east coast TV audience is the primary TV goal, and that a late finish at Baltusrol ensures the latest viewable TV coverage across the US (including Hawaii ).

But, what do the people on the west coast do from 4pm (when the golf finishes) until 60 Minutes comes on at 7pm?   Don't tell me they put the golf on 3-hour delay (we get some things on 30 minute delay in Adelaide ), or that 60 Minutes is shown at 4pm on the west coast.

When Majors are held on the west coast (eg at Pebble), do they schedule an earlier finish to accomodate a 7.00pm 60 Minutes on the east coast?

[JESII]

Matt,

SIT DOWN WITH A PIECE OF PAPER AND WRITE THIS OUT.
 
3:00pm - last group tees off
They play in twosomes which will take between 3:45 and 4:00 hours.
7:00pm - the latest the last group will finish - PERFECT for CBS and The PGA.
7:10 - Playoff will start if necessary
7:50 - Playoff is finished and the Trophy is presented

If you can't see that this is a conservative view of the days timeline you need to pay closer attention to all the facts. 1) They play in four hours tops 2) It's light until at least 8pm 3) a three hole playoff only takes about 35 minutes to complete.

You chastise me for "beating my guns" in regards to the business considerations, but that seems a much smaller offense than simply closing my eyes and ignoring them altogether. You might as well click your heels three times and chant "there's no place like home, there's no place like home".

Answer this one question for me: When you look at the weather forecast Saturday afternoon/evening and see a potential problem and want to make adjustments to tee times so that play absolutely no question finishes on Sunday evening, how much time do you alot for those weather delays if they arrive?

I think when you consider that question you'll realize why you have to assume everything will run like clockwork including the potential for a three-hole playoff.

The one chink in the armor is the potential for a tie after those three holes and the need for sudden death (which I assume is the next step).

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

Wake up man -- are you even remotely serious? Drop the silly boldface BS partner!

Do you think major championships march like some sort high school band simply because you can plop numbers where things should be. Talk about clicking your slippers three times because that's what you are believing can happen in some sort of rapid fire manner.

Have you been at any number of major championships and seen the possibility that any number of things can and do happen.

Read this aloud because you fail to open your mind to what I have ALREADY SAID ... You plan to give youself the WIDEST RANGE OF OPTIONS -- there is no foolproof 100% guarantee.

You don't start play at 3:00 PM and have darkness at 8:00 PM and then assume there will be no playoff or sudden death to follow. And with T-storms in the forecast you have to move things up at least one hour. The PGA Tour does this routinely.

When you leave NO WIGGLE ROOM you almost guarantee what happened will happened.

A Monday finish is the worst of all possible outcomes -- for the network, the PGA, players and fans.