Olde Kinderhook, New York

[JNC Lyon]

Olde Kinderhook has obviuosly been discussed a great deal here. However, after a search of the archives, I have not been able to find any pictures. Does anyone here have any pcitures of the golf course they might be willing to post? Thanks in advance.

[Peter Galea]

Here's a few from several years ago.
If I've gotten the hole #s wrong maybe Scott or Paul will correct me.


#3 par 5


#5 par 4


#6 par 4


#14 par 4

[Mike_Sweeney]

I got to play Olde Kinderhook yesterday with Scott. The superintendent would be well liked here as he is keeping the course brown. Here are some pics from the day:

It is a very large (500+ acres) property, so the course has that BIG COURSE feel of a Bethpage Black. It was a great driving course off the tee with some great angles and wide fairways.

The drive on 18:


Another back 9 hole:


Approach to #3 par 5 574 yards


#5  a great short par 4 from #4 tee


#5 from the #5 tee


#5 from the fairway


#6 Par 5 527 from the landing area


Somehow, Rees Jones seems to have a reputation here as having flat greens, but not at OK. I really enjoyed the greens.


Here are some wetlands for those who like to pick on Rees!




Finally the pAR 3 171 #16 over water


With less than 30 players on the course yesterday, firm conditions, great greens, great driving holes even the most hard core GCAer would be hard pressed to not have a very enjoyable day at OK.

PS. I actually did not have any pictures of containment mounding, but it is limited and mainly near the clubhouse between 1 and 18.

[Mike_Cirba]

Olde Kinderhook is a wonderful golf course, easily the best I've seen from Rees Jones.

There is very little of the containment shaping and unnatural looking features one sees often from him, and instead a solid routing takes advantage of many natural features of the property, and there are easily as many convex target areas as concave.  

It is ultimately very challenging to the top player, while not being heartbreaking or unfathomable to the lesser player.  

If only Huntsville, on a better property, had been this good!

 

[mike_malone]

 Mike,
      It is interesting to compare this 171 yd. par 3 over water to the #12 hole at Bulle Rock (174 yds.),which I played yesterday. If you can imagine the tee in this photo moved to the left then one can "choose" to carry the water or take a line to avoid it. I liked the Bulle Rock tee placement better.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mike,
      It is interesting to compare this 171 yd. par 3 over water to the #12 hole at Bulle Rock (174 yds.),which I played yesterday. If you can imagine the tee in this photo moved to the left then one can "choose" to carry the water or take a line to avoid it. I liked the Bulle Rock tee placement better.

My picture is from the 7259 Championship tees. We actually played from the 6681 tees over to the left, thus probably a similar shot to yours. When I start to hit the ball like Scott, maybe I will move back/right.

[Matt_Ward]

For all those Rees Jones lovers on GCA   -- both those who post and lurk -- make it a point to someday play Olde Kinderhook because all the ideas that Rees is incapable in designing a first class layout is sheer rubbish.

OK is a dynamic routing that has the wherewithal to compete for a top ten position among all courses in the Empire State.

Lofty praise indeed -- but the layout is well done and worth that and more.

[scott_wood]

Mike, no matter what you type , you'll get no more than 1 a side and, #3 should be noted as 602 from the back , to an elveated, windswept,"sand island" greenis

Pete: your picture is actually #15, not #5, which contains the only revised feature on the course. The original design had a "run-off ditch" from the large pond on teh right wrapping around the slightly elevated green. This past winter this was changed so now a large bunker guards the left ( safe) side and the right has been grassed/turned into a "false front". The jury is out/divided on the effect on scoring, but visually it is an improvement.

Mayday: the pic of the par 3 #16 is from the 2nd tee...there are 4, with the back at 180+ neccessitating the direct carry over water, progressively decreasing to 130, and very little water carry ( to a very complex green!)  

We ARE firm and fast!

[mike_malone]

  Thanks for that information. So, I am okay with testing those"better golfers".

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The problem I have with a number of posters on GCA -- people who should know better but often don't -- is the prevalent desire to quickly "tag" a peron or course and then extrapolate the findings into some sort of definitive statement on the capability of the person involved.

Without question -- OK is a superb layout. It has all the elements -- a solid piece of property -- a distinct routing that maximizes all the features of the land and shot values that are thorough and well thought out for the pacing you get throughout the round.

Rees Jones is often villified as being clueless and not "getting it" -- I don't doubt there are instances of where a number of his layouts fall in that category. But not at OK -- not for a New York minute.

OK has the potential to be a top 100 layout in America and in my book I would easily include it. Like I said before -- you can make a strong case that OK is among the top ten in The Empire State and given the high level of competition I believe it has the merits to crack into such an elite grouping.

[Mike_Cirba]

As with any of the "mega" design firms, I believe that a lot of the quality of any resultant course is often due to the talents of the associate in charge on site.

In the case of Olde Kinderhook, that was a fellow by the name of Steve Weisser, whose other recent projects include Quintero, Briar Creek, Dacotah Ridge (MN) & PineHills in MA. (which Ron Whitten lauded as being "different for Rees".)  

I haven't played any of the latter courses, but I do know that OK is much different than any Rees course I've played in terms of shaping.

[Paul Perrella]

Geoffrey,

  I do not want to steal the Baltusrol thread so I'm asking my question here. Do you, or anyone else that has played Olde Kinderhook, feel that a U.S. open could be played on this course with some small modifications. Certainly the fairways would need to be narrowed but I see the course as strong enough. Obviously I have a built in bias but I have played many major championship courses and I feel that OK stands up very well. Any thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Paul:

The issue about hosting a major championship goes far beond just the actual course -- it has to do with overall logistics and building fan and corporate support.

Frankly, the greater Albany area appears to me to be a depressed region. I don't say that with any disrespect to the people there but when one treks through the Albany / Troy area you see plenty of signs that the best days are behind it -- not in front.

Regarding OK -- the course clearly has the wherewithal to test the better players. What might prove interesting is to see the club host a USGA event like the Amateur as a warm-up to any such other possibilties.

What do you think?

[Paul Perrella]

Matt,

      My original comment/question was certainly only about the golf course and not any logistical or infrastructure matters. The Albany area with the State of New York presence is not a depressed area but is also not a hotbed of golf interest.
      We have had a U.S.Open qualifier and the course stood up very well. I agree with you that newer courses such as ours have to walk before they can run.

     Paul