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Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Define a golf course routing...
« on: August 14, 2005, 09:33:41 PM »
I continue to see golf courses where the continuity from green to next tee is non existant and is not even considered a problem by many developers.  What is a golf routing?  In my opinion anyone can lay 18 holes on the ground and then tie them together with cartpaths if interim distance between holes is of no importance.  I don't even consider some of these new projects to be routed just connected.
The talent in routing a course lies in the ability to blend the transition from green to tee into a harmonious mixture where it fits best.  
Will golfers continue to accept these new "routings"??
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2005, 10:31:05 PM »
Quote
Will golfers continue to accept these new "routings"??

As long as they have carts, no clue about golf architecture, and golf is more a social event than a sport... :-\
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2005, 10:51:49 PM »
Ahhh...but we might all recall the great walks in golf. Among them the pleasant jog from No. 14 to 15 at Cypress Point Club.

Routing does not always "work." I am not defending excessive connections. But it is not right to immediately dis-embrace all of them...and blame the cart.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2005, 05:54:42 AM »
A well-routed golf course is a course that has rhythm.

JC

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2005, 08:54:40 AM »
American Pie has rhythm...and a long pause.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -21
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2005, 01:51:09 PM »
Jonathan:  pls define rhythm ??? re a golf course
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2005, 02:02:00 PM »
Rhythm. Balance. Sequence.

A routing plan must give careful attention to each. Without these qualities, the golf course might as well be an ordinary maze and the golfer a rat looking for cheese. The idea of rhythm, balance, and sequence was articulated by golf architect Desmond Muirhead. Rhythm, according to Muirhead, is the relationship between difficulty and surprise; it has to do with the pattern whereby these qualities are presented to the golfer. “Nature knows rhythm best. It’s difficult to outdo nature when it comes to rhythm. A good routing appears natural like this. It has a natural flow.” That all-important flow may be partly rigid in its structure, but it also must be partly left to chance in order to have an engaging sequence. Muirhead was not alone in his feeling that “the intellectual capacity of many golf courses is lacking.” It is easy to find example after example of me-too designs that golfers can hardly tell apart.

From Routing the Golf Course (John Wiley & Sons, 2002)
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2005, 02:07:41 PM »
Paul, I cannot speak for JC, but he touches on the most important aspect. He calls it rythm, I call it ebb and flow. I suspect they are the same thing. It's kind of funny... cause the best analogy I often think of is one the supremes definition of pornography. I know it when I see it. However, the other day I was at a place where the flow was all wrong and quantifiable.
It all started on the tenth hole, a side designed by someone completely different than the frontside. This tenth hole was a long par 5 with a landing area that seemed teensy from the tee, and in reality, was even smaller. In other words, the hole was a real ball buster. It belonged much later in the flow, and just ended-up making the remainder anti-climactic.

Scott_Burroughs

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2005, 03:13:29 PM »
Ahhh...but we might all recall the great walks in golf. Among them the pleasant jog from No. 14 to 15 at Cypress Point Club.

Routing does not always "work." I am not defending excessive connections. But it is not right to immediately dis-embrace all of them...and blame the cart.

Forrest,

Was 17-Mile Drive there before Cypress was?  Hard to make #14 green closer to #15 with a road in between.

Certainly there are other classic courses with roads that are crossed from green to tee, but rarely are the distances much longer than 100 yards and severe in terrain.  Modern courses have distances seveal hundred yards between holes and it's not always due to severity of the property...and often the it IS the severe property that is left over because the homes took up all the good "walkable" parts.

Of course, look who I'm talking to?  The guy that wrote the book!  What can I say you don't already know?    ;)
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 03:15:29 PM by Scott_Burroughs »

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2005, 03:15:53 PM »
Yes, the road was there...although it did not cost $7.50 to drive it.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Scott_Burroughs

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2005, 03:30:30 PM »
Yes, the road was there...although it did not cost $7.50 to drive it.

$8.50   ;)

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2005, 04:06:48 PM »
"redanman® (for Q)"

...what is this all about?

And...$8.50...that is highway robbery...literally!

— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -21
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2005, 04:12:07 PM »
Forrest, Adam:  pls give me some examples of courses with good rhythm

Cypress?  Pebble? Pinehurst?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Forrest Richardson

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2005, 04:17:14 PM »
Cypress is a very good example. Myopia. Pinehurst No. 2 is not at all bad. Pebble is decent...especially its figure-8 flow. Muirfield (OH) is a very nice routing. I like Bandon's flow, perhaps slightly more than Pacific. But Pacific is great.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

David Druzisky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2005, 04:43:59 PM »
Considering Forrest was able to have more than a couple chapters in his book it is safe to say there is a lot of layers to routing, and not all of it has to do directly with the golf.  Specifically, the link between the holes is just one of those things on the list that at the end of the day add up to what you experienced.

Yes, in the strive to make the golf holes as best as they can be (or sometimes even work) with all the other development things thrown our way I guess we sacrifice the trait of proximity between holes.  The good thing is that I am seeing more emphasis on allowing the golf it's own core area - to some extent - and that should help.  Others see that too?
 
Core non-development courses is a different story.

Hey, how about the old links coures in Scotland, Ireland, etc. for Rythem?  How they evolved may have something to do with that aspect?

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2005, 06:02:00 PM »
I guess I am trying to say that I see more and more 18 hole course with no routing.  Almost like routing was completely disregarded just find me 18 green and tee sites and we will ride between them.  This is not routingIMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Matt_Ward

Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2005, 06:12:19 PM »
Mike:

To me a routing is the manner by which the architect uses to full advantage all the elements / features that the given site for the course possesses. Clearly, the land is the foremost element when I evaluate the totality of what is created. The routing is really the second among equals.

In addition, the routing will allow for the interplay of holes that counterbalance others that either come before or after it. For example, a superior routing doesn't allow for the same direction of holes to be a constant ingredient. Furthermore, the superior routing blends into the equation the control of ball flight (left/right & right/left as well as uphill / downhill, varying distances, etc, etc.

The superior routing doesn't allow / permit an easy to figure out pattern that the player can easily discern / master. One of the best examples comes from Muirfield in Scotland which revolutionized the context and complexities of routings. More than just the "out" and "in" type course.

David Druzisky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2005, 06:38:02 PM »
okay...MK..in seeing in print how you prioritized the land over the routing got me thinking about that.  It is safe to say that some very good routings have overcome awkward or average sites.  (Riviera)  So maybe we try to break apart this stuff too much and it is all just layers which maybe you hint at with the "among equals" qualification.

Where I think the men stand apart from the boys is in the ability to route on a tough site.  

David Druzisky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2005, 06:39:15 PM »
Okay...MW...

paul cowley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2005, 07:24:56 PM »
 I'm seeing much less resistance to core golf on tracts that we've been creating the master plan for....maybe it's an lessening of options presented ::).....better golf, better community, not really a choice if planned right.

 Even the mega developers are listening....core is cool  8)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2005, 07:30:20 PM »
Mike, how many courses today are routed by the residential project developer?  Not literally perhaps, but by giving the golf architect only the land not as desirable for the homesites.  Add in the road system and thank heavens for the golf cart!

Another condition that can really lengthen the distance between greens and the following tees is environmental, wetlands etc.  

Or it could just be the Robert Trent Jones Trail in Alabama where there never was a walkable routing conceived in spite of no housing on most of the courses!

paul cowley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2005, 08:40:36 PM »
 Bill....I think alot of what Mike is disturbed about is not just the developers desires, or even site constraints, but just poor or inexperienced planning in general......land planners all to often don't understand routing or the 'game' itself...L'scape Archs spend little time on golf planning in school.
 Conversely, many golf designers don't have a larger scale planning background and cannot really affect the master plan in a way that allows for the best routing....and are stuck with poorly designed corridors created by others in which to ply their trade.
  Its hard for a person to be equally skilled in this business when it comes to creating  good golf and good residential.
...but it happens :-X.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2005, 08:42:57 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ian Andrew

Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2005, 08:51:15 PM »
Cypress reminds me of a book slowly building to a climax.

Merion reminds me of a play, three different acts telling a wonderful story.

Pine Valley has none of those, and yet it is a masterful routing, well hidden by an aesthetic we talk about more.

You can't define a routing or what makes it great. I still think the great ones come out of instinct rather than a preplanned set of conditions thrown together to try and find greatness. While people talk about flow and rythem, please define either at Pine Valley. While they are words I would likely use too, I still don't think they touch the surface of what makes a great routing.

I still think the masterworks come from the transition holes, when you can't define them, the architect is a genius. If you think about all the great courses, find those holes, and most of what makes an architect great is defined in those holes (rather than the natural ones).

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -18
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2005, 09:21:33 PM »
Routings are all relative!  Sometimes they turn out great, other times they don't.  But in almost every case, it is rare that the golfer will ever know, understand, or realize what was involved to "route" the golf course in the first place.  We all judge the routing by what is there (myself included) but we truly cannot appreciate what the architect had to endure to make it happen unless we were involved with the process from the start.    

I go back to the much over discussed routing of The Plantation Course but then again what do Coore and Crenshaw know about a good routing.  Clearly these guys are clueless as they needed almost 800 acres to build their darn golf course.  What were they thinking  ;)

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2005, 10:09:06 PM »
It was obvious at Chicago Golf Club this weekend that C.B. MacDonald, who routed the course in 1894, had a fade or slice as his dominant shot pattern!  The front nine plays around the perimeter of the course clockwise through #8, when #13 goes to the perimeter followed along the perimeter by #14 and the tee shot on #15.  Old C.B. was no dummy, he never worried about driving OB!