Question For Matthew J. Ward--Baltusrol

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matthew J. Ward-Editor, New Jersey Golfer,
Since you have an arm band for getting inside the ropes, just how deep and tough is that rough? I saw a picture on PGA Tour.com this morning of them raking the roughs--is itmaking a big difference?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy,

I'll let Matt answer your question, but, the shots some of these fellows are hitting from the rough are nothing short of spectacular.

Now I'll ask you a question.

Why do we love the knee and waist deep rough in the UK at the British Open, but loathe it for the US Open and PGA ?

[Joe Hancock]

Why do we love the knee and waist deep rough in the UK at the British Open, but loathe it for the US Open and PGA ?

Pat,

You understand, of course, that these two roughs are not comparable. One is void of irrigation and fertility, the other is in the US. We are so enamored with our appearance, after all....

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

I knew the difference when I asked the question.

However, the weather patterns certainly promote growth in the UK, versus the U.S.

Those same roughs in the U.S. are brown, thin and highly manageable.

Just visit GCGC, NGLA and Shinnecock.

It's not a question of the agronomy, it's a question of perspective.

Why is it permissable, in fact, desireable to see pros hack the ball out of the tall, dense rough in the UK, but objectionable to see the same thing in the U.S. ?

[Joe Hancock]

Pat,

I haven't been to the UK, but it seems to me the rough over there allows for more advancement of the ball vs. the lush cabbage we see in our "Championships". Is the density of the rough over there really the same as what we watched on TV today?

Tommy's question was pretty specific concerning the site. I don't see the comparison between Baltusrol and "typical" knee high rough on the UK.

Joe

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci -

Are you talking about links courses in the UK?

Aside from the last Open at Carnoustie (won by Paul Lawrie), when have we last seen "pros hack the ball out of the tall, dense rough in the UK?"  

A few places at St. Andrews in the most recent Open, perhaps.  Other than that, the rough in the UK plays and is managed pretty much as you have described it to be at GCGC, NGLA and Shinnecock. Not having played those courses, I do not know first hand how those roughs are maintained.

I presume of course that you are not comparing how the rough is maintained for championship tournament play on parkland courses in the US, such as Baltusrol, where lush bluegrass roughs are planted, fertilized and watered. Comparing that rough to the fescue rough on links courses in the UK is an apples/oranges situation.

The next time the US Open returns to Shinnecock, my guess is that the USGA will prepare the rough so that it is NOT "brown, thin and manageable."

DT    

[tonyt]

Patrick,

The rough seen at The Open is typically more whispy. Which is why you, I and everyone else who watches the majors see more "hack outs" in the US Open and PGA each year or two than we have seen in The Open for the past couple of decades (outside of Carnasty).

So no, it is not "desirable" to see in the UK what we may be "objectionable" to in the US, but we aren't seeing it in the UK!! The fact that in the US, it seems to be a staged and set part of the setup is probably cause for a lot of the negativity, especially as unlike the majority of courses on the Open rota in Britain, it is not as in character with the US Open and PGA courses and their surroundings.

Look out, I'm gunna get green inked now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony, et. al.,

I include heather and gorse in the "rough" category

[David_Tepper]

Mr. Mucci -

If you include heather & gorse in the category, you are now comparing apples & oranges.  To the best of my knowledge, neither heather or gorse can be found at GCGC, NGLA or Shinnecock. Am I mistaken in that regard?

Based on playing 25-30 links courses in GBI, my best guess is that heather (which only grows ankle high by the way) is rarely found on any links course there. It is far more common on the inland courses in GB&I.

In fact, aside from some of the links courses in Scotland, there is much less gorse than one might think. I have seen little or no gorse on the 20-25 links courses I have played in England and Ireland  (Birkdale, Hoylake, Hillside, St. Endoc, Portrush, Portmarnock, Lahinch, Ballybunion, etc.).

Of course, there is really not much of an option if you have hit your ball into a gorse bush. In almost every case, you have to declare an unplayable lie and take a drop. Recovery is rarely an option.

DT      

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tommy,

I'll let Matt answer your question, but, the shots some of these fellows are hitting from the rough are nothing short of spectacular.

Now I'll ask you a question.

Why do we love the knee and waist deep rough in the UK at the British Open, but loathe it for the US Open and PGA ?

Pat,
If your talking about the rough that was at the recent Open Championship, then I have to say from the looks of it on T.V. and photos, I'm no fan. Also, that was not the type of rough I experienced on any course, let alone the Old Course and Carnoustie from my experiences there.

Why do others love it?

I didn't know anyone did.

In fact, I think it flies into the face of everything I believe in.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tony, et. al.,

I include heather and gorse in the "rough" category

Pat,
I know of no course I have played in Europe that have heather or gorse lining the fairways like the rough at Baltustrol does.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you but media duties have kept me hopping.

The rough at Baltusrol was uniformly dense because the club opted to place consistent Kentucky Bluegrass on the edges of eah fairway. In previous events at Baltusrol the rough was a hodge-podge of different grasses.

Earlier in the week the density of the rough -- in addition to the fact that course was quite moist and very lush -- prevented players from escaping at will. No less than Tiger, Davis Love, Phil, et al, metioned about the need to keep the ball in the fairway in order to score consistently.

As the week progressed the course became faster and faser -- I salute the preparation by Mark Kuhns and the direction showed by PGA Tournament Director Kerry Haigh. The folks at the USGA should take a notebook and go to thePGA because of the solid manner the course was presented and the overall fairness the layout gave to the world's best.

The rough was never easy and to answer your question -- the rough was raked to be straight up to allow for balls to sink to deeper depths.

Tommy -- Baltusrol may not be everyone's cup of tea from a compelling architecure standpoint but the folks at the club and the PGA made sure that a proper balance was struck between those who hit solid shots and those who did not. At the end of the day the quality of the leadersboard clearly underscored what they were trying to accomplish.

Quote from Tiger after Sunday's play -- "I can understand why everyone loves this golf course. I mean, it's hard but fair. It's right there in front of you. There's no hidden tricks, and it's a golf course that it finally showed its true form today (Sunday) when it dried out."

Tommy -- the rough was appropriate and to a man the players concurred on the set-up. Like I said -- the USGA and even the R&A should bring a notebook on major championship preparation. They would stand to learn a good deal IMHO.

[George Pazin]

Just out of curiosity, how much different would the USGA have setup the course for the Open? Seemed like a US Open setup to me, and I thought it played quite well. All in all, a very entertaining event.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
Thanks for the full report.

Hopefully you got some pictures from inside the ropes for all of us to see. Please do post some. Its an interesting study.

[PThomas]

seems as if the rough had at least some effect on scoring, vs the full scale flogging that goes on at most tour events...and shouldn't straighter driving be rewarded?

has this idea ever been considered:  more than 2 cuts of rough...i.e., have the second cut be 4 inches, for ex, the next be 5, etc....or would this be too much of a maintenance nightmare

[Tony_Chapman]

Didn't David Feherty come up with one of the all-time great lines of any telecast when he went up to Phil's ball right before the delay on 13 and saw it in the rough before saying, "You could give him a wedge and a stick of dynamite and he wouldn't move this thing."

Then Phil hits it to like 8-feet before missing the putt. I nearly fell out of the recliner.

[PThomas]

I saw that too Tony....he pulled a Rosberg!

one time McCord actually talked about a Rosberg on a CBS telecast...I think Chirkinian was still the producer, and it almost caused him to have a heart attack!

[Matt_Ward]

George:

The preparation for the event at Baltusrol was one smart enterprise by the PGA -- unlike the USGA which would have cut the greens to a very low height and exposed the course to the high temps / humidity much too soon.

The brass at the PGA and hats off to Mark Kuhns and staff did a fine job in keeping the course exactly where it needed to be and in making sure that quality golf and turf can indeed go together even under the most demanding of conditions.

Like I said before -- it always seems the USGA has problems when hosting the Open (e.g. Olympic in '98, Southern Hills in 01, Bethpage in '02, Shinnecock in '04). The PGA understands the proper balance because one could see a 63 with Bjorn's third round and high scores that came when players were slightly off their games (witness Love in the final round, to name just one).

[Michael Dugger]

George:

The preparation for the event at Baltusrol was one smart enterprise by the PGA -- unlike the USGA which would have cut the greens to a very low height and exposed the course to the high temps / humidity much too soon.

The brass at the PGA and hats off to Mark Kuhns and staff did a fine job in keeping the course exactly where it needed to be and in making sure that quality golf and turf can indeed go together even under the most demanding of conditions.

Like I said before -- it always seems the USGA has problems when hosting the Open (e.g. Olympic in '98, Southern Hills in 01, Bethpage in '02, Shinnecock in '04). The PGA understands the proper balance because one could see a 63 with Bjorn's third round and high scores that came when players were slightly off their games (witness Love in the final round, to name just one).

everything you say makes a lot of sense to me but I still do not see how the best golfer did not win the tournament at Shinnecock last year?  

Goosen played his ass off when the rest of the field was melting away, including Lefty with another stinky putting effort on #17.  

I mean, how many majors has he given away already?  He should have beat Payne Stewart--may he rest in peace-- in that U.S Open.

He should have beaten Goosen at Shinne.  
What else???  He's been in contention a lot, only for a fading putter to stall his charge.

[Matt_Ward]

Michael:

Witness the 7th hole last year at Shinnecock. Case closed. One doesn't need to bastardize a stellar course with trick set-ups. The PGA doesn't have such issues with its championship. Do you think that's luck or a sense of real skill in their overall set-ups. I choose to believe the latter.

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