The 87th PGA Championship / Baltusrol

[Tony_Chapman]

a good point, your last one Matt...The USGA , by not showcasing around the Open around the country more, wastes a golden opportunity to grow the game

Paul the Open and PGA were as follows for the past 10 years:

1996 - Oakland Hills, Valhalla
1997 - Congressional, Winged Foot
1998 - Olympic, Salahee
1999 - Pinehurst #2, Medinah
2000 - Pebble Beach, Valhalla
2001 - Southern Hills, Atlanta Athletic Club
2002 - Black, Hazeltine
2003 - Olympia Fields, Oak Hill
2004 - Shinnecock, Whistling Straits
2005 - Pinehurst #2, Baltusrol

Is it me, or is that a seven year stretch between Open's in the NYC area? Now, it's getting a bit heavy there with Black, WF and Shinnecock, but I trust the USGA will get back to other parts of the country accordingly. If my math is right that is five out of 20 championships being contested in the NYC area in the last 10 years. I don't see the bias.

Listen, I'm from Nebraska so I should be the first showing this bias, but I sometimes don't get why people think big tournaments are only in the Northeast?

[PThomas]

I hope your trust in the USGA bears fruit, Tony!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony Chapman,

Thanks.

It's amazing what the facts can do to clear one's head and illuminate a faulty position.

[PThomas]

W Foot 2006
Bethpage in 2009
Congressional in 2011

i.e., 3 times in the next 6 years the Open will be in the Northeast

sure seems to me they could have spread it around a bit better than that, Patrick!

[Patrick_Mucci]

The USGA , by NOT SHOWCASING THE OPEN AROUND THE COUNTRY MORE, wastes a golden opportunity to grow the game[/color]

Paul Thomas, you made the above, absurd comment, which wasn't true.

Tony Chapman provided the facts, listed below, which refute your statement that the USGA hasn't showcased the Open around the country.

Just admit when you're wrong.  It's no big deal and I'm sure it happens often   [/color]

Paul the Open and PGA were as follows for the past 10 years:

1996 - Oakland Hills,
1997 - Congressional,
1998 - Olympic,
1999 - Pinehurst #2,
2000 - Pebble Beach,
2001 - Southern Hills,
2002 - Black,
2003 - Olympia Fields,
2004 - Shinnecock,
2005 - Pinehurst #2,

[PThomas]

Patrick, Patrick, Patrick...you've been talking to my wife about how wrong I can be, haven't you?

of course, you'd both be wrong if you believe I am often wrong!

however, I shall plead guilty befor your court to the prior statement being incorrect

I should have stated that there is soem NE bias in future years..

I should have you proofread my stuff at work!

[Tony_Chapman]

Paul - There seems to be a recurring theme if you look at the previous Opens in that the USGA tends to go heavy Northeast for a period and then totally leave. Take the years prior to my previous post and you will see that:

1988 - The Country Club
1989 - Oak Hill
1990 - Medinah
1991 - Hazeltine
1992 - Pebble Beach
1993 - Baltusrol
1994 - Oakmont
1995 - Shinnecock

There is an 8-year stretch with five Northeast Opens, but clearly they use all corners of the country, except the Mountain Time Zone but it really doesn't have an Open course except Cherry Hills from the old days.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Thomas,

Think about the weather and what sites could host an Open in mid-June.

Then think about logistics, media coverage, attendance and all of the collateral issues.

An Open in a Sand Hills type venue won't work.

Population centers, especially the East Coast and California are natural sites with respect to the above.

What ten courses would you suggest for the Open ?

[PThomas]

Patrick  I will think about this a bit and re...spond in a day or so

[PThomas]

Patrick:  i'm quite proud - and I'm sure you will be too - that it has only taken a little more than 2 hours to come up with the following list of US Open sites, a list so airtight and well thought out that not even you can argue with it :

1. Sahalee
2. Cherry Hills
3. Bellrieve
4. The Ocena Course
5. Valhalla
6. Crooked Stick
7. Blackwolf Run
8.Oak Tree
9. Olympia Fields
10. Riveria

[PThomas]

Patrick:  an addendum which I failed to include the first time because I accidentally sent it off :

also

11.  Pumpkin Ridge
12.  WOlf Run
13. Atlanta A C

I anxiosuly await your response

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:  i'm quite proud - and I'm sure you will be too - that it has only taken a little more than 2 hours to come up with the following list of US Open sites, a list so airtight and well thought out that not even you can argue with it :

1. SahaleeWasn't it criticized for its narrowness ?
2. Cherry Hills  Do you really think the Pros  
           wouldn't make it a pitch and putt golf course ?
3. Bellrieve It's a possibility
4. The Ocena CourseCan it attract and handle the
                                            traffic ?
5. Valhalla  surely you jest
6. Crooked Stick It's a possibility
7. Blackwolf Run I don't know enough about it to
                                       offer a comment
8.Oak Tree Ditto
9. Olympia Fields it's a possibility.
10. Riveria agreed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:  an addendum which I failed to include the first time because I accidentally sent it off :

also

11.  Pumpkin Ridge Surely you jest
12.  WOlf Run I don't know enough about it to
                                    offer a comment.
13. Atlanta A C  It's a possibility

I anxiosuly await your response

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick:  i'm quite proud - and I'm sure you will be too - that it has only taken a little more than 2 hours to come up with the following list of US Open sites, a list so airtight and well thought out that not even you can argue with it :

1. Sahalee
2. Cherry Hills
3. Bellrieve
4. The Ocena Course
5. Valhalla
6. Crooked Stick
7. Blackwolf Run
8.Oak Tree
9. Olympia Fields
10. Riveria

You´re joking about Bellerive, right?  Though to be fair, I have not been on the course in decades, and know they are starting a several-year renovation program.  

[PThomas]

Patrick:

1. I can't recall the criticism of Sahalee, but it produced a "quality " champion (Vijay) so it seems like a possible site

2. C Hills - you may very well be right about this one..the women struggled there this year, I don't know how long they could make it....I don't know Denver golf too well...perhaps there is another worthy site

4. Ocean -- not sure what the attendance was for the Ryder Cup there, but if they are concerned about too big a crowd they could limit it to 25000 or so as they've done at Shinny

5. Valhalla - well, it did host some PGAs....if the criticism of T Pines is valid - I played before the renovation and wasn't bowled over--, then maybve Valhalla isn't that bad of a choice

7. Blackwolf Run - I'm not talking about W Straits, which has the 07 Senior Open, I believe - is a good possibility, I would think...they played a composite course for the womens's open, where they winning score was over par...they'd definitely get the crowds, the cheeseheads do come out...I've played there a bunch...it's 151 from the back, there is not much if any let up...again, is it long enough?

8. Oak Tree had the PGA where Sluman won.....was supposed to be a ferocious test, but I think it was calm for 4 straight days then, which I understand RARELY is the case

9.O Fields deserves another chance....the rough was cut down by the USGA I believe to too short of a height, and on the weekend when it dried out it played VERY TOUGH

11. P Ridge:  I reckoned since they had a Womens' Open  that perhaps it could host for the men....is your criticsm of the course???

12. Wolf Run -- supposed to be very difficult

Jim - they've played PGA's and Opens at Bellrieve before....is it too short now or what....

[Jim Nugent]

Patrick:

1. I can't recall the criticism of Sahalee, but it produced a "quality " champion (Vijay) so it seems like a possible site

2. C Hills - you may very well be right about this one..the women struggled there this year, I don't know how long they could make it....I don't know Denver golf too well...perhaps there is another worthy site

4. Ocean -- not sure what the attendance was for the Ryder Cup there, but if they are concerned about too big a crowd they could limit it to 25000 or so as they've done at Shinny

5. Valhalla - well, it did host some PGAs....if the criticism of T Pines is valid - I played before the renovation and wasn't bowled over--, then maybve Valhalla isn't that bad of a choice

7. Blackwolf Run - I'm not talking about W Straits, which has the 07 Senior Open, I believe - is a good possibility, I would think...they played a composite course for the womens's open, where they winning score was over par...they'd definitely get the crowds, the cheeseheads do come out...I've played there a bunch...it's 151 from the back, there is not much if any let up...again, is it long enough?

8. Oak Tree had the PGA where Sluman won.....was supposed to be a ferocious test, but I think it was calm for 4 straight days then, which I understand RARELY is the case

9.O Fields deserves another chance....the rough was cut down by the USGA I believe to too short of a height, and on the weekend when it dried out it played VERY TOUGH

11. P Ridge:  I reckoned since they had a Womens' Open  that perhaps it could host for the men....is your criticsm of the course???

12. Wolf Run -- supposed to be very difficult

Jim - they've played PGA's and Opens at Bellrieve before....is it too short now or what....

Paul, I´m no expert on Bellerive.  Now with my qualifiers out of the way, the course bored me beyond belief.  I knew that even as a 12 year old kid, when I attended every day of the 1965 U.S. Open, including practice and playoff.  Major league disappointment.  

Played Bellerive several years later.  A typical RTJ course of the 1960´s.  Long with about zero personality.  I think Hord Hardin was a member and also held an executive position in the USGA.  He lobbied hard to get the Open.  It amazes me to see it ranked so high.  

Maybe it´s just me, because as you said they later played the PGA there too.  Mr reaction to that was WTF?

Would like to know if others familiar with the course think I´m delusional, or generally agree.  St. Louis CC is another matter altogether, and IMO ten times the course Bellerive is.

They are remodeling Bellerive, so maybe the new version will appeal more.   I don´t see how they get around the basic routing or topography, which seem pretty ordinary to me.  

[Matt_Ward]

Pat Mucci:

Keep in mind the US Open can sell out in just about any location. The corporate pre-buy is enormous plus the stature of the event is greater now than ever before. In years prior before golf exploded it was essential to be in a big city area. That's not the case now.

One can simply look at the success of Whistling Straits in hosting last year's PGA as a clear example. The same will happen when the PGA comes to Charleston.

I don't doubt the greatness of certain key Northeast sites but the Open can succeed in a variety of locations -- the logistical aspects are still important but they are not a deal sealer as they were previously.

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