W 100

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Ben:  I know that half the people who got to Cape Kidnappers didn't get as far as Barnbougle; and I think there are a few who have been to the latter but not the former.  I have yet to hear from anyone who has played both who didn't rate Barnbougle higher, so I would expect it to gain over time, but they both have their own appeal.

Tom,
I do not agree with you that they have their own appeal, but skyrocketing to 27th as a debut would certainly seem to indicate that its appeal was greater.

Interesting to hear you say that people having played both favour Barnbougle, which is my own preference. Does this mean Barnbougle has room to rise, but Cape Kidnappers does not?

Jon,
My tongue was firmly in cheek.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Kauri Cliffs making this list is mind boggling.    This is an ordinary golf course with wonderful views, but no better than any Hawaiian resort course.  A 4-5 on the Doak scale.

This list, as it always has, suffers from a poor number of samples.  100 raters canvassing 500 or so of the 25,000 world golf courses will forever generate too thin a sample base.

JC  

[Don Herdrich]

Mr Childs,

It is nice to see my comments getting under your skin, your profanity is really not needed though....

I really do not know what Trump National has to do with the argument with Yale other than TN is not in Yale's class, so we agree.  As far as Spyglass Hill, you are very wrong doc.  It definitely is a more solid course with better balance, variety, topography, great holes and thrilling shots than Yale.  You could have played Yale from its inception every day and it still wouldn't give you the expertise to knock Spyglass unless you had played there.  And I assume from your first post, you have not.  I really have a problem with people making blanket statements on courses when they have only seen them on TV.  If you have played it once or twice, I give minimal credit.

[NAF]

Don-

I don't agree with you either.  I've played Spyglass 7 times and Yale about the same amount.

Spyglass in my estimation has these great shots

1) 2nd shot into #1
2) Dropping shot into #3 which is only for the eyecandy
3) Both shots on #4, obviously the best hole on the course

That is it for me.. The rest is solid golf with solid shot values but I would hesitate to say inspired golf..

Yale has the following inspired shots

1) Second shot into #2
2) Tee shot into #4
3) Tee shot on #5
4) Second shot up the hill on #7
5) Both shots on #8
6) The all world #9
7) Second shot into #10 with the green and second shot like Shinny #9
Tee shot on the redan
9) Approach into the Knoll hole
10) Tee shot and 2nd shot into #17

Yale gets my game face on when I play it.. After the first few holes of seeing the Pacific at Spyglass I settle in for a nice time but nothing that gets my blood going.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mr. Childs

As an alumnus of Yale, I do have a soft spot for that golf course and do appreciate what has been done.  I have not seen the course since the 2003 Payne Whitney outing but have probably played the course 30 times.  

I have also played Seminole a like amount of times as my winter home is in the area, and play SFGC anytime I am on the west coast.  You are spot on in regard to Spyglass.  But at what point does the choice come down to "what course would I prefer to play tomorrow"?  What is better Yale or Fenway?  Are you a member at Fenway?

Keep this up and the administration will REALLY think they hired the right restoration expert.  

Tommy- This is my preference with regard to these golf courses. If you wish to debate them from the point of view of architecture, ambiance, history or any other criteria I will do so.  I'm sure Don won't participate as he seems just to lay down the law as to his opinion without anything to back it up.

I think Fenway is wonderful and I would be happy to play it regularly. It is not on the whole as good as Yale.

The Yale administration by now KNOWS that they made a huge mistake with their bunker project and with the selection of Roger Rulewich. They also should know when they do someting right and they have done this with regard to their ongoing tree (removal) program and and maintenance practices. They can't be punished forever for their Rulewich mistake which I think will be at least partially corrected over time.  Move on please and lets discuss the architecture of SFGC, Seminole and Yale if you wish.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mr Childs,

It is nice to see my comments getting under your skin, your profanity is really not needed though....

I really do not know what Trump National has to do with the argument with Yale other than TN is not in Yale's class, so we agree.  As far as Spyglass Hill, you are very wrong doc.  It definitely is a more solid course with better balance, variety, topography, great holes and thrilling shots than Yale.  You could have played Yale from its inception every day and it still wouldn't give you the expertise to knock Spyglass unless you had played there.  And I assume from your first post, you have not.  I really have a problem with people making blanket statements on courses when they have only seen them on TV.  If you have played it once or twice, I give minimal credit.

Don

I apologise for the profanity so now lets talk architecture.  The courses listed were those I HAVE played and most of them more then once.  I lived in the bay area for 5 years so Spyglass is certainly one of them.  Lets talk abot those thrilling shots at SH.  #2 is a very good hole but not in the league of #2 at Pine Valley which is is supposed to emulate.  #4 is one of my favorites as well and % is a good par 3 on a spectacular setting. Then there are the other drop shot par 3's from the same hill and good but not great parkland holes. Yale is overwhelming from the opening tee shot.  Only #16 can be considered ordinary with the rest of the holes varying from excellent to great to world class great.  The overall topography at Yale exceeds SH by a long shot.  Putting is more varied and fun and I'd certainly be more inclined to run back to the first tee for another round at Yale then I would at SH.

[Jim Nugent]

Geoff,

   I was just happy (sic) to see Trump National ahead of such "dogtracks" as Fenway, Nairn, Prestwick, Double Eagle, Black Mesa, Dallas Nat'l, Royal Aberdeen, North Berwick, Carne, National at Moonah, Paraparaumu, Valley Club, Monterey Peninsula, Cuscowilla, Camargo, Hollywood, Swinley Forest, Walton Heath, etc...

Steve-  Got me   I can think of many others as well.

I've been lucky to play many of the World 100 list both in the US and abroad and as it sits now I think Yale comes out better then the following (some of which will be shockers). Others on the list that I have played and not listed are close in my comparison with Yale.  I see others on the list that I have not played that I would be surprised if I would put them above Yale should I get to play them.

Seminole!
Pinehurst #2!
San Fransisco GC !
Baltusrol
Olympic
Harbor Town
Cruden Bay
Maidstone!
Bandon Dunes
Shadow Creek
Trump National  
Spyglass Hill
Ocean Forrest

Geoffrey, where would you put Yale on the list?  Top 20?  I´m hoping you can give us an exact number or at least a close ball-park approximation.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Jim

In my estimation Yale is one of the 60-70 best courses in the world.

With a proper bunker restoration project in would jump into the top 50.

I could not and would not try to argue with someone who felt differently then I do about courses like SFGC, Seminole and P #2 as they are truly elite in their design and playability as well.  Yale is in that league however.  Spyglass is another story.

Come to CT and play it and make your own judgement.

[Don Herdrich]

I guess we should just make Yale #1 in the whole world and stop with the daggers back and forth........#1 university and #1 course in the world, happy??

When I compare a course like Spyglass and Yale I look at everything....not just architecture of the course.  RTJ did a masterful job with that layout (IMO it is one of the top 15 modern)........it IS one of the hardest the pros play every year (that counts for something in my book).  I also look at pace of play for the players....at Spyglass it isn't the fastest place, but Yale is downright unplayable with 6+ hour rounds about 80% of the time.  And the conditioning at Yale was horrible for years (that counts for something too).  I am glad they university has gotten its act together and seems to be putting an effort getting it back to good to very good conditioning (it always irked me why the richest univ on the planet could not do what was right out there).  But, I was out at Yale last week and the conditions were deplorable.  I know weather has not been the best, but it was shocking to see how bad it was.  On the other hand Spyglass is always in great shape (unless you play after a day of storming).  

I am not anti-Yale, I hope they do well.  But I will take a round at Spyglass any day of the week.  God, I wish I took San Francisco GC as my weopan against Yale......even though I think it is slightly overrated.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I guess we should just make Yale #1 in the whole world and stop with the daggers back and forth........#1 university and #1 course in the world, happy??

When I compare a course like Spyglass and Yale I look at everything....not just architecture of the course.  RTJ did a masterful job with that layout (IMO it is one of the top 15 modern)........it IS one of the hardest the pros play every year (that counts for something in my book).  I also look at pace of play for the players....at Spyglass it isn't the fastest place, but Yale is downright unplayable with 6+ hour rounds about 80% of the time.  And the conditioning at Yale was horrible for years (that counts for something too).  I am glad they university has gotten its act together and seems to be putting an effort getting it back to good to very good conditioning (it always irked me why the richest univ on the planet could not do what was right out there).  But, I was out at Yale last week and the conditions were deplorable.  I know weather has not been the best, but it was shocking to see how bad it was.  On the other hand Spyglass is always in great shape (unless you play after a day of storming).  

I am not anti-Yale, I hope they do well.  But I will take a round at Spyglass any day of the week.  God, I wish I took San Francisco GC as my weopan against Yale......even though I think it is slightly overrated.

Don- Yes Yale is #1 in the world.   Have you actually been reading this discussion?  I have given my honest opinions and we can discuss individual features of SFGC vs Yale too if you wish.  They are in the same class in my opinion.  

I have not been up to Yale since July 27th and conditions were excellent that day.  If the extreme weather has hurt conditioning I'm sure Scott will do a good job of correcting the situation. You said "But, I was out at Yale last week and the conditions were deplorable.  I know weather has not been the best, but it was shocking to see how bad it was." Could you please be somewhat specific about what you consider DEPLORABLE?  2001-2003 conditions- now that was deplorable - compare last week to that.

Does your evaluation of a course change on a weekly or monthly basis depending on the grass?  I agree with you about past conditions at Yale and you can find numerous posts in the archives where I roasted them.  I am hardly a home boy on this topic as I think I was the biggest critic of the course.

I fully agree with Redanman after numerous plays at SH.  Its over rated and living on its location and PGA tour status. The parkland holes are OK but quite frankly I think Metedeconk National is a better RTJ parkland course (for those 13 holes) then SH.

[Bob_Huntley]

Geoffrey,

I must say I always like to read your passionate defense of the Yale Golf Club, but at times your devotion comes across as that of an uxorious husband.

Is ithe course that GOOD?

Bob

 

[Geoffrey Childs]

Geoffrey,

I must say I always like to read your passionate defense of the Yale Golf Club, but at times your devotion comes across as that of an uxorious husband.

Is ithe course that GOOD?

Bob

Bob

My fiance is the best, most beautiful #1 outstanding ....

Seriously, I have been the most fervent critic of Yale in the past but the bones of the course are that good.  Now with Scott Ramsay there to showcase its merits it can stand up in the same category with those I've mentioned. There is a lot of room for improvement if they would ever put it back to its wild and wooley original state but that courld be said about many courses on that list including SFGC (3 bastard holes, softened greens), Seminole (wavy flashed bunkers) etc.

I wish Ran would poke his head in here for a moment.  We played Yale together recently and went through a discussion like this one.  I think he thinks more highly of its design merits then I do!

Please come back east for a visit.  I would love to play Yale with you.

 

[Mike_Sweeney]

Geoffrey,

I must say I always like to read your passionate defense of the Yale Golf Club, but at times your devotion comes across as that of an uxorious husband.

Is ithe course that GOOD?

Bob

 

Bob,

I am still trying to figure what has gotten into the wine at the Golfweek rater convetions. First Mike Cirba is kissing The Donald's course, and now Geoffrey is the number 1 advocate of Yale.  

If I told you some of the things the Hickory Playing Ran said to me after his last trip to Yale in July (via phone, I could not play that day) you might be tempted to jump on a plane and play with our group on Sunday at Yale.

I am interested to see what Mark Rowlinson thinks of Yale and others after his trip to The States. By the way, if you are open to a trade of the underrated MPCC 36 holes of Raynor and Stranz, I am your man!

[Don Herdrich]

"Could you please be somewhat specific about what you consider DEPLORABLE?  2001-2003 conditions- now that was deplorable - compare last week to that."

lets just say the greens were in fairway type shape.......I don't know what happens behind the scenes, but the members I was with were not very happy.......

Now back to Yale's merit of being of #1........I just picked up the GM list......and seeing I have played 90% of the USA list I believe I have some legitimacy in comparisons......looking at clubs rated ahead of Yale:

Forest Highlands - Yale better
Miwaukee CC better
Pete Dye GC - Yale better
Trump INT and National.......please don't make me laugh
Kittansett - could be argued heavily, but I like Yale better
Pasatiempo - have never played so I cannot make a judgement
Myopia - I cannot think of one or two places I prefer to South Hamilton
Piping Rock - PUSH
Baltusrol Upper - Yale
Hazeltine - Yale
World Woods - PUSH
Plainfield - Yale
Briars Creek - dont make me laugh
Baltimore - Yale
Olympia Fields - doesn't do much for me...even though being a Park gives it a lift - Yale
Cherry Hills - PUSH
Torrey Pines - it being on this list is a joke!
Yeamans - Yale
Valley Club - one of my top 3 favorites
Honors Course - have to give this to Yale
Cascades - have not played
Peachtree - not bad, but gets a high rating due to its private nature IMO - Yale
Colonial - this is a real tough one, PUSH
Wade Hampton - think Farm is better, so Yale
East Lake - PUSH
Ocean Forest - Yale
Camargo - too high on the list
Spyglass - have already heard my rant


Now, Yale is easily top 50 in the USA......and then come the major debates.....I have not played out at Bandon yet......

Yale in top 35-40 can be debated

See, I am not anti-Yale!
 

[Geoffrey Childs]

"Could you please be somewhat specific about what you consider DEPLORABLE?  2001-2003 conditions- now that was deplorable - compare last week to that."

lets just say the greens were in fairway type shape.......I don't know what happens behind the scenes, but the members I was with were not very happy.......

Now back to Yale's merit of being of #1........I just picked up the GM list......and seeing I have played 90% of the USA list I believe I have some legitimacy in comparisons......looking at clubs rated ahead of Yale:

Forest Highlands - Yale better
Miwaukee CC better
Pete Dye GC - Yale better
Trump INT and National.......please don't make me laugh
Kittansett - could be argued heavily, but I like Yale better
Pasatiempo - have never played so I cannot make a judgement
Myopia - I cannot think of one or two places I prefer to South Hamilton
Piping Rock - PUSH
Baltusrol Upper - Yale
Hazeltine - Yale
World Woods - PUSH
Plainfield - Yale
Briars Creek - dont make me laugh
Baltimore - Yale
Olympia Fields - doesn't do much for me...even though being a Park gives it a lift - Yale
Cherry Hills - PUSH
Torrey Pines - it being on this list is a joke!
Yeamans - Yale
Valley Club - one of my top 3 favorites
Honors Course - have to give this to Yale
Cascades - have not played
Peachtree - not bad, but gets a high rating due to its private nature IMO - Yale
Colonial - this is a real tough one, PUSH
Wade Hampton - think Farm is better, so Yale
East Lake - PUSH
Ocean Forest - Yale
Camargo - too high on the list
Spyglass - have already heard my rant


Now, Yale is easily top 50 in the USA......and then come the major debates.....I have not played out at Bandon yet......

Yale in top 35-40 can be debated

See, I am not anti-Yale!
 

Don - I have been called an enemy of Yale golf in the past.  No one called you anything close. I put up some controversial nominations to spark some interesting debate though I stand by what I wrote. We are not far off at all.  The only question I would ask is whether East Lake is that good? I'm anxious to see Camargo and not on the list Eastward Ho.

Disagree about WOrld Woods but love the course too.- Why is Trump Bedminster so far behind WW Pine Barrons?

[Mike_Sweeney]

lets just say the greens were in fairway type shape.......I don't know what happens behind the scenes, but the members I was with were not very happy.......

Don,

Tell the members to get on the email update list.  

Scott has been doing some very deep punching of the greens, and unfortunately you caught the tail end of that. I was going to send some people up on August 6th, and they discouraged it knowing I play with some "finicky" golfers.  

[Gordon Oneil]

Gentlemen
Just to jump in here with my "newbie" two cents, as a Florida golfer I have played WW Pine Barrens numerous times, both casually and  in the State Am a few years back.  That said, if "deplorable conditions" play a significant role in this discussion, Pine Barrens doesn't deserve to be on any magazine's or anybody's Top 100 list.  Over the years I have rarely seen it in decent shape, let alone in the sort of condition one would expect of a course as highly rated as it tradionally is.  
Don't get me wrong, it is a jaw dropper at first glance and an excellent tribute by Mr. Fazio to Pine Valley.  It just continues to be a disappointment on each return visit.

[PThomas]

Welcome Gordon

when I played P Barrens a few years ago the greens were not good, but when I was there this April they were in fine shape!

[Jason Blasberg]

From the top 100 US list it looks like GM needs to visit a few more C&C courses.