In Defense of Baltusrol

[Patrick_Mucci]

You are correct that is what I said. They were not completely removed. You view Tilly's Saharas as conventional sand hazards only, that is a very simplistic (and mistaken) way to look at his great hazards. They were a combination of sand, rumpled ground/mounds and rough grasses. The remnants of the great hazards at Ridgewood still remain; they were not completely removed. If I erred, it was in not clarifying the difference between bunker and hazard. I assumed you knew.

Tom,

I know what Sahara complexes are, and I've never seen one with the elevations in the mounds as evidenced on the 4th hole West, at Ridgewood.

It's quite possible that in converting the feature from a sand and land feature to a pure land feature that the land portion was completely altered by adding substantive height.

In viewing those mounds I doubt that they existed in their current form when sand was part of the original feature.

Since you've never seen them, I'd be careful in characterizing them in their orginal form, Point A, their current form, Point B, and the intervening changes that have taken place between Points A and B.. [/color]

However I was wrong in accusing you of being HamiltonBHearst...you are not and I apologize.
Apology accepted.
I was hoping to convert that issue and debate into cash, but, alas, that's no longer possible.
Do you remember how positive you were about HBH being me ?

Getting back to Ridgewood, I would like to find out if both Sahara features on # 3 E and # 4 W were converted at the same time, or if one was converted on a trial basis, with the other Sahara following suit sometime later.

Perhaps the AWT experts or someone familiar with Ridgewood can answer that.   I'll see if Ridgewood has a club history that discusses the architecture.[/color]

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike...FYI Nicklaus did not hit into the right rough in the fourth round.  He hit a 3 wood short of the fairway, then duffed a short iron, from there hit the 1 iron.   Janzen did hit it to the right in the 4th round of the '93 Open and then I believe hit short of the green but may have gotten on.  Don't recall exactly.

Cliff/Jim/Patrick,

Here is Jack's account;

"The home hole at Baltusrol, as I mentioned earlier, is a 542 yard par five that can be reached with two big shots.  However, you can go for a bundle on the 18th, a dogleg to the left with the break coming about 275 yards out from the elevated tee.  On the drive you want to favor the right side of the down-sloping fairway, for along the left there is water paralleling the fairway, clumpy rough, and thick woods."  

"On the other hand, if you aim your drive down the right and push it a little, there's trouble there, too - rough, bushes, and trees. (Just such a shot on the last hole in 1954 had cost Dick Mayer a 7 and possibly the championship).  I decided to play the safe, prudent tee-shot: a 1-iron.  With a four-stroke margin, I wanted to be sure I didn't make more than a six."

"My 1-iron slid off a few yards to the right of the line I meant to take, but it was not far enough to reach the bushes and trees.  I finished a couple of yards in the rough on a patch of bare ground close by a television cable drum.  I was permitted a free drop to get clear of the obstruction, but with a tight lie on crusty ground I decided that the intelligent shot was to lay up short of the sizable water hazard that crossed the fairway about 120 yards in front of me.  I took an 8-iron, set myself up carefully to play a little three-quarter punch, looked up on the shot like a duffer, struck the ground a good two inches behind the ball, and advanced it barely 50 yards nearer the hole."

"I took out my 1-iron.  By my calculation I was some 230 yards from the green, all carry, and slightly against the wind.  I didn't know if I could fly a 1-iron that distance, but that was the club I wanted to play."

[Cliff Hamm]

 

"My 1-iron slid off a few yards to the right of the line I meant to take, but it was not far enough to reach the bushes and trees.  I finished a couple of yards in the rough on a patch of bare ground close by a television cable drum.  I was permitted a free drop to get clear of the obstruction, but with a tight lie on crusty ground I decided that the intelligent shot was to lay up short of the sizable water hazard that crossed the fairway about 120 yards in front of me.  I took an 8-iron, set myself up carefully to play a little three-quarter punch, looked up on the shot like a duffer, struck the ground a good two inches behind the ball, and advanced it barely 50 yards nearer the hole."

"I took out my 1-iron.  By my calculation I was some 230 yards from the green, all carry, and slightly against the wind.  I didn't know if I could fly a 1-iron that distance, but that was the club I wanted to play."

Mike...I could be wrong and who are you going to believe Jack or me .  I will agree he took a 1 iron off the tee.  As to the second shot I am pretty convinced it was short of the fairway, perhaps a bit to the right but short of the fairway so that his 8 iron was hit straight not on an angle to the fairway.

[Mike_Cirba]

Cliff,

Obviously, Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.  

Seriously, I think the point I was trying to make is simply that Jack was in the right rough, correct?  If he hit his second shot 50 yards and still had 230 to the hole, his tee ball would have travelled approx. 262 yards.  

[T_MacWood]

"I was hoping to convert that issue and debate into cash, but, alas, that's no longer possible.
Do you remember how positive you were about HBH being me ?"

Pat
Actually you and I would have broken even...I was positive you were both HBH and LIRR. I was only half wrong.

Now you need to get an apology from HBH.

[Jim Nugent]

Cliff,

Obviously, Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.  

Seriously, I think the point I was trying to make is simply that Jack was in the right rough, correct?  If he hit his second shot 50 yards and still had 230 to the hole, his tee ball would have travelled approx. 262 yards.  

I thought the hole was shorter in 1967.  Feel pretty sure Jack did not hit his 1-iron 262 off the tee.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Cliff,

Obviously, Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.  

Seriously, I think the point I was trying to make is simply that Jack was in the right rough, correct?  If he hit his second shot 50 yards and still had 230 to the hole, his tee ball would have travelled approx. 262 yards.  

I thought the hole was shorter in 1967.  Feel pretty sure Jack did not hit his 1-iron 262 off the tee.  

Jim,

Jack wrote in 1969 that the hole was 542 yards.  

Now, he may have exaggerated that his second shot only travelled 50 yards, but he's generally a pretty precise fellow about his yardages.  

[HamiltonBHearst]

I never made any claim that I am Pat Mucci.  

I enjoy the gentleman's insightful posts.  He tries to engage in relevant architectural topics in a dignified manner. Which is more than I can say about others.

Macwood, make your apology and move on!  

[T_MacWood]

Hambone
Give me a break. From the beginning you've tried to immitate or mimic Pat...all while hiding behind an alias.

Either you are ashamed of your support for Pat or you are simply mocking him...either way it is insulting.

There is nothing dignified about hiding behind an alias.

[Jim Nugent]

Cliff,

Obviously, Jack doesn't know what he's talking about.  

Seriously, I think the point I was trying to make is simply that Jack was in the right rough, correct?  If he hit his second shot 50 yards and still had 230 to the hole, his tee ball would have travelled approx. 262 yards.  

I thought the hole was shorter in 1967.  Feel pretty sure Jack did not hit his 1-iron 262 off the tee.  

Jim,

Jack wrote in 1969 that the hole was 542 yards.  

Now, he may have exaggerated that his second shot only travelled 50 yards, but he's generally a pretty precise fellow about his yardages.  

Canīt remember if it was here or another site, a guy posted that he had a video of Jack at Baltusrol in 1967.  Said the carry was 210 to the front, plus another 12 or so yards to the pin.  My memory, which canīt be relied on, is that Jack carried to the front part of the green, then sank a 22 footer for bird.  

Nicklaus has said he completely crushed the one iron from the fairway.  Maybe he did hit his 1-iron of the tee 262.  Just seems surprising that he hit a perfect shot 220 or so (or 230), and misses one 262 off the tee.  

Somewhat trivial, really, but fun to learn what really took place.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim,

The tee shot at 18 is significantly downhill and the approach is significantly uphill, which should account for the difference.  

He doesn't say he missed the tee shot..only that he pushed it a bit offline.

[Cliff Hamm]

Mike...Have to admit Jack is accurate on the yardage.  Went back to check a Baltusrol scorecard from 1967 and 18 was 545 from the Blues (17 was 568!).  My recollection was of a fat short iron - 8 - and would have guessed it went 100 yards or so.  Hence his drive with the 1 iron would have been about 212 or so.  Keep in mind that the drive off of 18 is downhill, worth at least 20-30 yards.  I completely recall the tv cables as ended up standing right next to Jack's ball for the 8 iron.  Would have sworn the drive was short of the fairway and not far right, but could be wrong.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim,

The tee shot at 18 is significantly downhill and the approach is significantly uphill, which should account for the difference.  

He doesn't say he missed the tee shot..only that he pushed it a bit offline.

Maybe he did hit the tee shot 260 then.

[Mike_Cirba]

Cliff/Jim,

I think the variable in this equation is how far Jack actually chunked his second shot.  His book talks about 50 yards, but that might just be a hyperbolic estimation.  For arguments sake, let's say he hit it 65 yards.  That would decrease the length of his 1-iron off the tee to 247, easily plausible downhill.

[Phil_the_Author]

I find it interesting that with all of the recent discussion on how far players from the past hit the ball and the new technology today, that no one seems to have picked up on the clear comparing of Nicklaus & Mickelson. Phil's was about five to seven yards in back of where Jack hit his one-iron from. We all saw him walk up & tap the plaque with his 3-wood. His shot came up short of the green about as far away from it as he was from Jack's plaque. Jack carried to the green with his one-iron "into a slight breeze."

How far past Phil would Jack be with today's equipment & ball? I would imagine a good bit.

[Mike_Cirba]

I find it interesting that with all of the recent discussion on how far players from the past hit the ball and the new technology today, that no one seems to have picked up on the clear comparing of Nicklaus & Mickelson. Phil's was about five to seven yards in back of where Jack hit his one-iron from. We all saw him walk up & tap the plaque with his 3-wood. His shot came up short of the green about as far away from it as he was from Jack's plaque. Jack carried to the green with his one-iron "into a slight breeze."

How far past Phil would Jack be with today's equipment & ball? I would imagine a good bit.

Phil,

I'm not sure I understand your point...could you elaborate?  The shot in question was Jack's third shot to the green, not his second like Phil's.  

Also, Jack hit his 1-iron pretty close to his distance with a 3-wood.  I've heard it compared to a rifle-shot  

[Jim Nugent]

I find it interesting that with all of the recent discussion on how far players from the past hit the ball and the new technology today, that no one seems to have picked up on the clear comparing of Nicklaus & Mickelson. Phil's was about five to seven yards in back of where Jack hit his one-iron from. We all saw him walk up & tap the plaque with his 3-wood. His shot came up short of the green about as far away from it as he was from Jack's plaque. Jack carried to the green with his one-iron "into a slight breeze."

How far past Phil would Jack be with today's equipment & ball? I would imagine a good bit.

Also...are we 100% sure the plaque is at the right spot?  Maybe heīs wrong, but a guy with a video says the shot was maybe 220 or so.  

That said, seems like however long Jack was -- and it was long -- he would be longer with todayīs equipment and balls.  

[James Bennett]

"My 1-iron slid off a few yards to the right of the line I meant to take, but it was not far enough to reach the bushes and trees.  I finished a couple of yards in the rough on a patch of bare ground close by a television cable drum.  I was permitted a free drop to get clear of the obstruction, but with a tight lie on crusty ground I decided that the intelligent shot was to lay up short of the sizable water hazard that crossed the fairway about 120 yards in front of me.  I took an 8-iron, set myself up carefully to play a little three-quarter punch, looked up on the shot like a duffer, struck the ground a good two inches behind the ball, and advanced it barely 50 yards nearer the hole."

"I took out my 1-iron.  By my calculation I was some 230 yards from the green, all carry, and slightly against the wind.  I didn't know if I could fly a 1-iron that distance, but that was the club I wanted to play."

If you want to work out how far Jack hit his tee-shot, use the creek crossing 120 yards away.  That should give you the position of his drive.  Then, using the 230 yards remaining for the third shot, determine how far his punch 8-iron duff went.  I wish I had a strokesaver handbook for this hole - it would resolve this 'mystery'.

[Phil_the_Author]

I guess I was misunderstood. My point is that Jack is supposed to have hit his one-iron to the green from the spot of the plaque. If so, his shot to the green with a steel-shafted one-iron & 1970's ball flew in the air at least the same distance as Mickelson's 3-wood & ball, and maybe a few yards further.

I was trying to emphasize how far Nicklaus hit back then. He was always head and shoulders distance-wise past his contemporaries & I think this is a true comparison of what some could do without technology. It also gives us an insight into what-ifs of Jack vs. Tiger as Tiger seems head & shoulders longer again than his contemporaries as well as brings back the truth to the old standard about how even "God couldn't hit a one-iron!"

[James Bennett]

Phillip

my suggestion was to clarify how far Jack's tee-shot went, not his thrid shot.  Did the tee-shot go 260 yards, or less (it was a mishit).

I don't think this is the only mis-hit Jack had on the last hole of a 'Major'.  My memory for the obscure reminds me that Jack played golf on his wedding day, went for the big drive on the 18th (his last as a single man) and cold-topped it!  I was fortunate enough to play 9 holes on the morning of my morning wedding, and was proud to get a good one away on my last hole.  It was a great day.

Did Jack also miss (top?) a drive on the last of another US Open, when playing with Arnie?  I think he mentioned it in 'Golf My Way', but I don't have a copy.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

JacK Nicklaus hit his 3-wood considerably farther than his 1-iron.

Which players today routinely carry a 1-iron ?