The "Provacative and Innovative" Jim Engh

[DMoriarty]

I wrote this post after reading John Conley's thread on Engh, but decided against side-tracking his thread before it even has a chance to track.  

Let's be clear up front.  I am not fan of Jim Engh's work.  But I am no expert on Jim Engh's work either.   Not even close.  I've seen only one of his courses, once-- Black Rock-- which was heralded as his best, or at least one of his two best.  

In case you havent been paying attention, I thought Black Rock was horrid, at least when compared to the hype.  More than that, I cannot think of a single thing about the course that comes close to qualifying as 'provacative' or 'innovative.'   In fact the only thing I find the least bit provocative is the Thomas Kinkaid effect-- How could something so shallow and superficial be thought so deep and profound by so many?  

But, perhaps I am just completely missing it.  Just what is it about Jim Engh's work that is provacative or innovative?  The Hollywood Bowl greens?  The gutter fairways?  The low-road fairways, high-road cart paths? The repeated use of squiggly snake bunkers with grass faces?  The over-the-top water-features?  The marketing promise of a short-term coveted, long-term meaningless golf digest "best new _____" award?    

Maybe I am just too dense to see it.   What exactly is ground-breaking about this guy's work?  What is he doing that is lifting golf architecture to the next level?  How is he pushing the envelope even the least bit?  What makes him a leader, as opposed to just another panderer trying to make a buck?  

Help me out John C., or anyone else.  Seriously.  Give me a good reason to look again and I will, if the opportunity arises.  Tell me why I should bother to give this guy's work a second thought.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Help me out John C., or anyone else.  Seriously.  Give me a good reason to look again and I will, if the opportunity arises.  Tell me why I should bother to give this guy's work a second thought.

David,

Trust the people of Belmullet (Carne), Ireland. There is a reason why they gave him this land next to Mr Hackett's work.



PS. I have never played a Jim Engh course, but I will play the new 9 at Carne someday.

[cary lichtenstein]

DMoriarty:

Jim Engh's work is not for everybody and you appear to fall strongly in the "I hate his work."

If you do find yourself in Colorado, you should torture yourself and play Sanctuary in Denver, Lakota near Glenwood Springs and Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction.

They will not convert you, as a diehard Jim Engh hater, but you will enjoy yourself nonetheless and think of the number of "I hate Jim Engh's work" that you will be able to post .

Cary

[Andy Doyle]

I've read that Engh was selected to design the new course at Reynold's Plantation - does anyone know anything about the proposed course?

AD

[cary lichtenstein]

Andy:

The course is being built as we write, but has been delayed by wet weather in the Atlanta area. I think most of the clearing has been done.

Cary

[Kirk Gill]

What makes him a leader, as opposed to just another panderer trying to make a buck?

Harsh !

This is interesting to me. You use the word "another." Who are the other golf architects out there who are panderers trying to make a buck? Is it just possible that Engh is, rather, an architect that has a style that you don't like, but is otherwise a fine and upstanding human being? A leader to some, perhaps, or just another working architect to others?

Just asking.

[Evan Fleisher]

I have only played one of Jim's courses...Hawktree up in Bismarck, ND...and I have nothing but good things to say about the place and the work Jim did there.

He took a very severe piece of property and laid a pretty good golf course over the top of it.  The features there do not look manufactured and fit very nicely into the surrounding terrain.

Is the design provocative or innovative?  Not sure, but it is certainly memorable, and in my opinion for the right reasons.

Maybe a trek around this course will help sway your decision?  

[Andy Doyle]

Cary:

... has been delayed by wet weather in the Atlanta area

Wet weather is right.  We've had over 22 inches of rain this summer - we are used to summer thunderstorms, but this is ridiculous.  There are trees down all over the city - 3 very large oaks down on our street alone (crushing 2 cars and 1 house in the process).

Do you know any details of the Engh course?  Lake views? Lakeside holes?  How will it fit in with current rota of courses at Reynolds?

Andy

[Tony_Chapman]

Mr. Moriarty (sorry I don't know what the D is for) - I have also played Hawktree and it is quite good. I don't, however, think it is better than Pasatiempo or Wild Horse (which were both ranked lower by Golf Digest (WH wasn't even a top-100 public  ). I agree with Evan that he took a very tough piece of ground and built a pretty fun golf course.

I believe (and I wish Jim Engh would come on here sometime and clarify this) that he built the back nine at my home course in York, NE. He didn't do much to the land here at all, except build greens. Here is the MHC if you want to look at the back nine. Don't blame him for the rocks on #17 either, he didn't do that.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/mhcyork.html

Tony

[John_Conley]

pro·voc·a·tive   adj.
Tending to provoke or stimulate.

in·no·vate   v. in·no·vat·ed, in·no·vat·ing, in·no·vates
v. tr.
To begin or introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time.

DMoriarty:

I do not write for a living, but I do fee the terms accurately captured my thoughts.

provoking or stimulating[/b]?  Heck yeah.  A thread on Engh elicits much more emotion than a thread on Jeff Brauer, Mike Young, or Lloyd Clifton.  Why?  Is there something to Jim's work that makes it provocative?  I'd say experience on this site makes the answer an unquestionable yes.

introducing something for the first time[/b]?  Maybe not on every course, but collectively on all his courses he has shown us those snakey, gutter-like fairways (anyone else you know that's done that?), introduced a lot of the holes I christened "Enghfers" (par 4s where there is a five-wide landing pad for huge hitters that reduce the hole to a Drive-N-Chip), tackled severe sites seemingly more suitable for the fantasy courses on a Links video game, and settled into a design style I could only categorize as "busy".  There's a lot going on when you look at the land on his courses.

Notice the term "provocative innovator" doesn't imply that you - or even I - have to be a fan of his work.  (FWIW, I've played Sanctuary and cannot wait to see my second Engh.  Unlike Quass, I'm not at a point in life to caravan an Engh-tasting.  Some of his courses have much more appeal to me than others, but that could just be the result of an "Engh-hater" like you giving me the first report.)

I'll say this.  If you haven't met him I'd be alarmed if you didn't come away having a lot of respect for him once meeting.  He's just so darned nice, friendly, and enjoyable to be around.  We played golf one time and, while you don't have to like his courses, I think you'd find him to be someone likable.  I'll even go so far as to say that you'd come away WANTING to like his courses!

All the best.  May we someday play our second Enghs together.  Deal?

[George Pazin]

Mike -

Is that an example of Engh's work there? Quite a difference from what else we've seen on here, if so.

[John_Conley]

George, I think that is an example of the course that exists at Carne.  I know Jim is quite fond of it and that Ran isn't, hard to get to, don't know much else.

From that post above I gather that Jim will lay out a third nine.

[George Pazin]

Thanks, John.

It will be interesting to see what comes of it. I'd probably prefer something natural looking like Mike posted, but I wonder if the people there didn't hire Jim specifically to get something different.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Haven't payed Carne (Belmullet) but have only heard wonderous things about the wild duneland. (John Garrity profiled it for SI in these terms).  It's right up there in my want to list.(surely that's the only list all GCA's keep).

I was only dipping into the other threads when I read Jack Marr saying this was the man who was going to add new holes.  They will sit next to Hacketts work who from what I read of Engh had the exact opposite operating modus operandii, on a low budget job like this he used to walk around until he found the right spot for a stake to go.  Carne was origianally created to give work to the locals.  I'm stunned by the choice.  Is there no more links land there and he will have to create it?  Or will he adopt his style to suit the terrain?  If he insists on what people are describing as his manufactured look not tied into the land the results could be "provocative".  It must be a good thing that there are Architects doing things that are not the norm... but it still seems an odd choice for this location.

Does his firm have a website showing his work?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tony

Take a look:

www.enghgolf.com

www.clubatpradera.com

www.lakotacanyonranch.com

www.redlandsmesa.com

www.sanctuarygolfcourse.com

www.blackrockidaho.com

Steve

[Andy Troeger]

Like some of the other posts, I've only played one Engh course, Tullymore in Michigan, but I thought it was wonderful. It was refreshing to play a course that from reasonable tees actually encouraged using the driver off the tee even on shorter holes to give players better angles into the greens. There were many holes where a strong player could take advantage of length of by playing an aggressive drive, but there was still plenty of room for everyone else to play safe and enjoy the course. Biggest downfall, the par threes were a bit monotonous...all over marsh areas with forced carries. Not bad holes, just rather similar. The yardages did vary on them at least. It also had the serpentine bunkers and many of the Engh trademarks that were discussed, but overall I thought it was challenging, dynamic, and fun to play. Was a great contrast as well with Arcadia Bluffs which I played on the same trip. (Personally I actually liked Tullymore a fraction better, but both were good).

[Andy Troeger]

David,
   Not sure I can answer your real questions having only played one course. It might be that time will tell if Engh is innovative...might depend whether anyone else starts copying his ideas. Then in 40 years if everyone is doing those types of bunkers he'll be the one that made them popular. Might be unlikely, but who's to say.
   One other thing though that I really liked but I can't say was innovative...since I'm going to compare it to another course ...was his use of trees to separate risk/reward options. There were a few shots where you could take the agressive route over or past trees to the green, or the safe or longer route around them. It reminded me of 11 & 16 at Blackwolf Run-River, which are two of my favorite par 5's anywhere. To go for #16 or to hit an agressive layup on 11 you must commit to playing over the river past the trees. Tullymore's 8 and 14 especially reminded me of those types of shots.

[John_Conley]

John C.  used the terms to describe Engh in another thread, and he gamely explains what he was thinking-- Engh's work has provoked controversy around here, and he has used some features that not many others use:  "snakey, gutter-like fairways," wide landing areas which reduce par 4s to pitch and putts, sites more suitable for computer fantasy golf, and a "busy" design style.   I of all people cannot deny that there has been controversy surrounding his work,  and while I think they are much more common than does John C.,  I do agree with his description of Engh's design style.  

DMoriarty:  Maybe I don't get out enough.  Where are there courses, or even holes, that make a golfer say, "Is this an Engh job?"  If the answer is Lakota, Tullymore, Black Rock, and Sanctuary I rest my case.  I don't see anything resembling his work from anyone, although Pascuzzo did stuff in a few Enghfers on The Ranch in Massachusetts.

Just so you know, when I've talked about the 5-wide landing pads for a long tee shot, this only reduces a hole to a pitch and putt for him!  He is an EXTREMELY long hitter that was exempted into the finals of the Long Drive for two reasons - 1) he's obviously friendly with the top dawg at Re/Max, and 2) he hits it a helluva long way!!!  Easily four bills off the first tee at Sanctuary.  (My only round at serious altitude, my personal theory is that the thin air seems to benefit those who already carry it a long way.)

Ordinary players have 150 or more into an Enghfer.

[Wayne Freeman]

I played 2 of Engh's courses in Denver this month-  Sanctuary was built by the ReMax owners to be a spectacular showpiece for charity events-  it's $1000 a pop, and it is an amazing course with massive elevation changes and 14 or 15 signature holes.  I'm not sure I'd want to play it everyday, because there are a lot of blind shots and the fairways really narrow in spots, but it is very impressive.  His new course, Pradera is a terrific links layout which reminded me of Prairie Dunes-  it has a lot of Irish feel and was very enjoyable.  Based on these courses, I would say Engh has  a bunch of talent.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

DMoriarty

During my recent Colorado trip, I played Pradera and Lakota Canyon. While I wouldn't use the terms "provocative" or "innovative," I would agree with Wayne Freeman's take on Pradera as enjoyable. Pradera is not a mountain course. It is located in Parker, a suburb, on rolling land southeast of Denver. Yes, there were semi-punchbowl greens and thin bunkers and some elevated tees and interesting 5pars. But, it was a pleasure to play and I'm sure the members will enjoy the course. On the other hand, Lakota is a mountain course. The same features as mentioned before are there. The course was more challenging and more visually intimidating than Pradera. The elevated tees were higher on the back tees to the point where I felt an escalator was needed. I played from 2 back tees at my hosts request. The shots weren't that much different. I would say that Lakota deserves the praise that Cary and Matt have given it on this board.
I don't know where you live but I suggest that you play some more of Engh's courses. All architects have a "style" and maybe Engh's is site specific but IMO,based on my experience, he produces good stuff. Ross has a "style" (and I belong to an early Ross club) What would Ross have produced on Engh's sites? Who knows? Different strokes for different folks.

Steve

[Mike Erdmann]

I played Black Rock on Monday afternoon, which I think is the first Jim Engh course I've played.  In thinking about David's question about why Engh is provocative, maybe it's because in a way, Engh is sort of an anti-minimalist.  While so much attention over the past couple of years has been given to more minimalistic "looks", Engh's designs have a bold, in-your-face look to them.  The serpentine bunkers with steep bulbous grassy faces, the bowled green surrounds and fairways, the elevated tees, they are all anything but minimalistic.  So in a time where minimalism is heralded, Engh seems to go against the grain, and perhaps that's why makes it provocative to some.

[Andy Troeger]

David,
 I guess we probably are looking at these things from different points entirely. Personally, to use the word stimulating from John's post, I thought Tullymore was incredibly stimulating. What is not to love about trying to pull off some of the heroic shots that were present . The options present on all shots and the nerve required on some of them to pull off the "best" shot were wonderful. To me that is provocative.
  Obviously we're also talking about different courses here. While it sounds like Engh has a "style" associated with his courses, one might be better than another. For either of us to really say we know that much about "Engh courses" from one play is impossible...which is why I've tried to keep my comments to thoughts on Tullymore on not on the rest of the courses that I don't know much about.
  Engh is certainly good for discussion though

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty speaking of himelf above;

"But, perhaps I am just completely missing it"

I've never seen any Jim Engh architecture so I can't comment on it or why it may be provocative or innovative. All I know is Jim Engh is an awful nice fellow to meet. But when it comes to Jim Engh architecture and David Moriarty, or any architecture and David Moriarty, the above quoted remark should always be considered the most logical possibility.