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Kyle Harris

Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« on: August 05, 2005, 09:25:34 PM »
The outing today was a great success, despite some poorly timed thunderstorms that brought in the last group which included myself and Phil Young.

The course is weathering the summer alright. Wet, as is most any other course in the "suicide belt." And the day watering took a lot of the break out of the greens. Fairways weren't rolling too much but ya gotta do what ya gotta do.

The course is attempting to land the US Women's Open, which I feel the course is ideal for. Good variance in set up, nice balanced design and a tricky but fair design. Great green complexes too.

Doug Braunsdorf and I also had the oppurtunity to take a look at some of the new features on the Black Course. Both new chipping areas (Behind 4 and 10) are a definate improvement. They should encourage more aggresive play on the holes and seem to make it more fair for the laymen. The new tee on 9 has received mixed reviews, but for the US Open, should prove to be fair. To get to the VERY TOP of the hill is a 300 yard carry, but the slope of the fairway on the right side is more gentle than that on the left, so it is still a reasonable hole for the shorter hitters on tour.

The 14th green expansion is a good thing. I feel the only part of the green that isn't needed is the new back left portion, and the back right part of the green should provide some excellent hole locations. I'd like to see some of the back left returned to rough and the left bunker reduced in size a bit as well. This would give the green a back right to front left angle off the tee. The green shape is consistent with the Tillinghast style of "wiping" the green across a bunker integrated with the green. A lot of the greens on the Red Course when they were at their original size looked like this. The green also has a horizon now, which will make any back hole location that much more intimidating. However, I was not terribly fond of the relatively simplistic fall off over the back. Perhaps as it settles some interesting contour will be found.

I also checked out the second green more thoroughly and felt the size and contour is adequate as is. There is a pronounced ridge toward the rear of the green that would require the knowing golfer to select the right club (usually a wedge) to sit the ball back on that shelf. Since the green is blind, this is exceptionally challenging and requires the golfer to trust their yardage.

A special thank you to Phil Young for organizing this wonderfully fun event. I look forward to the next installment and can't wait for my next trip to Bethpage.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2005, 11:04:21 PM »
Thanks again Phil. The Red Course at Bethpage is a challenging and fun course to play and may have fallen under the "ratings/ranking" radar because all of you raters from GW and GD only want to play Black. Take a look at this Tillinghast gem and you should come to the conclusion that Red is one of the better public courses in this country. This was my first visit to Bethpage and I look forward to many more.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2005, 10:39:48 AM »
Was there much discussion about the 13th?  This is my favorite hole at Bethpage.  Somewhere there is an old picture that shows the right fairway being in the 40-50 yard width range.  

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2005, 05:09:11 PM »
Robert,

Within my group there was much discussion. I figured the fairway over there was wider so as to provide an ample bailout. I was the only one in the group that took the left had option.

Red's 13 could be one of the most purely strategic holes I've ever played. The bunker complex is looking splendid and the green site is bar none. I am also particularly fond with the bunkering around the green and how the slopes integrate with the green itself to favor an approach from the left side.

The hole was cut on the right side, placing an even greater premium on picking the correct side of the fairway bunkers to come in from. At 400 yards, this hole is about as ideal as a golf hole can get.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2005, 08:58:40 PM »
A proper thank-you to Phil for setting up a great day at a great place, and to Steve, Jason, and Joel for being nice playing partners.  

It was a fun, and hot day. We'll be back for F&F in a few weeks.  Fall is a wonderful time for golf on LI.  

I am happy that many got to see the Red Course for the first time--it's a wonderful place to play, and Steve, whenever you're ready to get out there again, you know what to do!  Jason, we'll call you from the Belt Pkwy-

Also, thanks to Dave for talking with us on his day off, and for allowing Kyle and I access to the Black, to see the new work on several holes.  

I have my own opinion about #14, which differs from Kyle's.  I am not a fan of the appearance of the new green.  I do applaud the elasticity designed into the hole, which may be necessary, but I do think the green looks rather out of place.  

All involved are looking forward to a second go-around on the Red later this summer.  

"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2005, 09:31:22 PM »
I think Red would be a great course to host a Women's Open. I hope it materializes. The 13th hole(400y 4par) is one of best holes that I've played this year. The center bunkering(about 100y long and 20-30y wide) creating the split fairway makes one think on the tee. Coupled with a left to right wind, the shot was quite interesting. I chose the left fairway option and my shot landed in the rough next to the center bunkers leaving a 150y shot to a front pin. There was much more room on the left. Luckily, I had a yardage book to see the option clearer. Without one, the choice would have been impossible. The 18th hole(464y 4par) is a great finishing hole and some say it could be used for the Men's Open. It's not as visually pretty as the 18th at Black but it is quite challenging with the large yawning bunker on the right side.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2005, 09:44:04 PM »
From the White tees at Red:71.2/126 at 6555y

Here is a review:

At Bethpage, Black isn't the only game in town
By PAUL SUWAN

(Original publication: May 25, 2003)

It might come as a surprise to learn that when Bethpage State Park director of golf Joe Rehor and his assistants have a chance to go out and play a round, they always choose Bethpage's Red course.

After all, Bethpage is home to the famed Black, the course people sleep in their cars to play, the site of last year's U.S. Open, the layout ranked among the best in the world.

"First of all, I can't walk the Black," Rehor said. "The golf course is just too difficult for me, and for any guy who doesn't play golf for a living. It's too hard for the touring pros — they proved that last year."

What Bethpage Red offers is some of the Black's flavor without all of its bite. The two courses are both A.W. Tillinghast designs, opened around the same time, and require both power and finesse to be successful.

With its current length of 6,868 yards from the back tees, the Red is a little more manageable for most players — for now anyway. Impending construction of new tees on four or five holes is expected to extend the course to more than 7,100 yards.

At least carts are allowed on the Red, which isn't the case on the Black. And the rates are still as low as they come: $24 during the week and $29 on weekends, with a $3 reservation fee.

Of course when you talk about the Red, one of the subjects that always comes up is its demanding par-4 opening hole. Upon first glance, it's fairly straight and doesn't seem all that difficult. But with its 471-yard span and relatively small, elevated green, just making par is a tough chore.



 Although the Black course gets most of the attention, the Red is good in its own right.
And it doesn't get any easier on the dogleg-heavy back nine, which features six par-4s all measuring at least 400 yards.

"One's a monster right out of the box," Rehor said. "Everybody has this idea about the Black course and how difficult it is and they say, 'OK, well, if it's that difficult, then the Red and the Blue can't be as difficult.' Well, guess what? When you go out there, you find out. For nine holes you shoot 40 or 41 and you think you should be even par.

"The Black gets all the notoriety. But again, I'm going to tell you that in a lot of ways — although it's not as difficult as the Black and I'll never say that (it is) — there are holes out there (on the Red course) that are every bit as good as the holes on the Black course."

That's one of the main reasons the Red hosts a number of important events every year.

This year alone, the schedule includes the Long Island Open, qualifying for the Champions Tour's Long Island Classic, the WMGA/MGA women's public links championship and the McLaughlin Invitational hosted by St. John's University.

"We travel all over the country and, by far, these are the best greens that any of our players play the whole year," St. John's coach Frank Darby said. "They're not too undulating, and you can make some stuff. But they can also get penal."

Ultimately, it's that blend of playability and challenge that draws players to the Red. It might not be the Black, but if you have neither the time nor energy to wait on the car line, it's probably about as close as you can get.

"It's really a good golf course," Rehor said of the Red. "It's got everything you need. You've got to drive the ball well, the par-3s are very, very good and the par-5s — although the young kids today can probably reach the par-5s (in two) because they hit it so far — for the average guy, they're three-shot holes. You finish playing a round of golf there and you say, 'This is hell of a golf course.' "
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2005, 09:56:58 PM »
I'm really sorry I missed this event but I was out of town on vacation.

I have not been back to the Red since just before I moved out to California in 1976 but I have some fond memories.  At that time the Red was more difficult to get on to play then the Black which no one wanted to play.  I will get out there very soon to see the improvements and to refresh my fond memories.

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2005, 10:32:47 PM »
Geoff,

I would love to meet you halfway anytime you are available. We could make a day of it, play Red and Yellow or something. Some good golf out there that isn't Black.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2005, 10:34:57 PM »
Geoff,

I would love to meet you halfway anytime you are available. We could make a day of it, play Red and Yellow or something. Some good golf out there that isn't Black.

Kyle

I'd love to do that.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2005, 04:56:08 AM »
Robert, you wrote, "Was there much discussion about the 13th?  This is my favorite hole at Bethpage.  Somewhere there is an old picture that shows the right fairway being in the 40-50 yard width range."

That is correct. The hole was designed with a split fairway with an island waste area in the center. They have done a credible job of restoring the right side (lost over time to maintenance lapses), and will be expanding it out a little further next year.

To get an understanding of how much the greens at Bethpage have been reduced in size, take a look on #6 (I believe that was the hole Kyle) when next you play it. There are two grassed over bunkers that are some 18 to 20 feet beyond the putting surface. The green would have come out to them. When you realize what was there you will find yourself examining everyone after that.

Kyle, sorry for the mix-up. I don't know how I missed you guys. I would have loved walking out on the Black with you. Next time.

T_MacWood

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2005, 08:31:02 AM »
How would you compare the greens of the Black and the Red? Are they similar in design?

Kyle Harris

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2005, 09:54:02 AM »
Tom,

In my opinion, I feel the greens on the Red are more strategic in nature than the greens on the Black.

First, the bunkering around the greens as well as the presentation of the green in regard to the fairway tend to favor a certain angle from the tee or shot from the fairway. For example, the first and thirteenth holes both favor approach from the left based on the direction the green is pointing and in the example of the 13th, the bunkering.

Secondly, the greens on the Red feature more integration of slope with the surrounds of the green. Again, using 13 as an example, the greenside bunker on the right is built into a mound that also serves as a slope on the green that falls away from a player approaching from the right side of the hole. Therefore, choosing the easier line off the tee leaves a difficult shot into the green compounded by an approach over a bunker to a portion of the green that falls away from the golfer.

Lastly, the greens on the Red are a bit larger and feature more internal contour than those on the Black. This leads the player to consider position on the green in relation to where the hole is for that day. The primary example of this is on the sixth hole, where a large green falls away from the player approach from the right side of the fairway (and outside the dogleg). However, cutting the dogleg is dangerous in that the ground is more broken and sloping and there exists the possibility of being hampered by trees on the approach.

All these features tend to make the Red more of a strategic golf course than the Black, though I still believe the Black to have a lot of strategic possibilities.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2005, 10:28:20 PM »
Very carefully over the past few years, Craig has been restoring the greens to their original size.  Since 1990 when I first played in the LI Open, the 1st, 15th, and 16th greens have nearly doubled in size.  He has extended 2,3, 4, 5, front 6, 7, 8, 10, 13, 14, and 18 greens.  The back of 6 and 8 are very much candidates for further extending.  There are some really wild and cool pins that could be found in the back of 6, not to mention the fall-off possibilities in the back right area.  There are quite a few great pins that emerged when 15 was restored--it was a tough target to hit previously, but the green surface was basically flat back to front; now the sides and front contain really interesting pins next to tricky slopes  After 13, I think 6 is the next best hole in the complex.  I really think it rivals Sands Point 6, Hempstead 14, Fenway 15 among his best short holes.

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2005, 11:18:06 PM »
Tom-

  Good question.  Another difference between many of the Red Course greens and Black Course greens is the ability to hit both aerial and running approaches on the par fours and fives.

  For example, on The Black, holes 2,5,6,9,10,15 and 16 must be played through the air.  (Note: I am only listing par 4 and 5 holes at either course.)  On The Red, Hole 18 is the only one that requires an aerial approach.  I am not sure about #1-the green is open in front, although it is quite elevated-30 feet or so from the fairway level, although fairway cut runs up to the green.  I would appreciate input from Kyle, Robert, and other pros on here on this.  (the ability to run a ball, perhaps with fairway metal, into #1).  

  Number 6, which Kyle, Robert, and Phil touched upon, slopes from right to left-sometimes hampering approaches which don't come in from the proper angle.  

8 has a pronounced tier.

9 is built up, and it looks like it breaks...  ;)

15 is also a devil from a less-than-proper angle.  

16 has (if I remember correctly) 2 or 3 pronounced slopes within a slightly bowl-shaped green.  

The other thing is the overall scale.  The Red does not have the HUGE scale of many of the features on the Black, but it is still testing and enjoyable to play.  

Mike Cirba, if you're reading this, you WILL play Red this year with us.   ;D
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 11:21:02 PM by Douglas R. Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Mike_Cirba

Re:Tillinghast Society Outing at Bethpage
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2005, 04:37:47 PM »
Mike Cirba, if you're reading this, you WILL play Red this year with us.   ;D

Doug,

I'd love to.  

Life will be a bit crazed between now and mid-September, but I bet it would be awesome in the fall.

Let's get me, you, Childs, and Harris together.

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