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redanman

Rick Smith as architect
« on: August 09, 2005, 01:06:13 PM »
I played my first of his recently, still needing to visit Michigan, I must say.   :-[

What are those with vast Rick Smith experience's thoughts oin his designs?

I was surprized to find bunkers sometimes set up as carry bunkers that were, sometimes weren't.  I found strategies very clearly, almost too clearly laid out most of the time.  The course I played had 3 par 3's all the same length(180-182), green and bunker size and orientation (and forced water carries) in play the same way (from the back tees, the mids and forwards did differ) which I found very odd.  Par 5's worked well but the critical "interesting 2nd or 3rd shot" test was not there on them.

I found holes with central bunkers and holes with only annoyingly flanking rough bunkers.  I found wiggly fairway lines on straight holes (a peeve of mine).

I almost thought two or three differnt people designed this course.  

I did find it enjoyable and (almost too) easy to "figure out" but my wife really, really hated it. I played reasonably well, neither too well nor too poorly to not give me a read on the course.

Not to specifically get into this particular course, but what about teh tendencies of this designer and his use of features?

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2005, 01:33:41 PM »
He was involved with Arcadia Bluffs in Michigan with Warren Henderson.  His involvement is questionable?   As for Arcadia Bluffs, its a really interesting golf course, huge amounts of dirt moved to create something very different.   There are a number of really good holes architecturally, and some terrific greens and bunkers.  Its a little too tough for a high handicapper but alot of fun to play.

Peter Pratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2005, 01:52:20 PM »
I like Arcadia Bluffs and the 2 Rick Smith courses at Treetops in Gaylord, especially the first, very much. He definitely believes in wild greens, on the evidence of these three courses. Arcadia is a stern test, though its wide landing areas are some comfort as one plays into the diabolical greens. The Rick Smith Signature course at Treetops is a great deal of fun, with an enormous variety of holes and County-Down-like bunkering in places.

Jfaspen

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2005, 02:06:33 PM »
I've been wanting to make this thread for awhile...

I've played 3 of his courses..

R+S Sharf Course at Oakalnd University
1st at Treetops
Arcadia

One thing that struck me is his overuse of the elevated tee.  While it is neat in Michigan that we have the elevation for this feature, it has a limit.  Several holes on the first 2 courses listed use it and eventually it gets old.

The Sharf course at OU has some great holes on it (the 2nd, the Augusta like 5th, etc)..  The greens are interesting but overall i felt that site could have been better utilized.

The one I played at treetops is your quientessential Gaylord, MI course.  I really enjoyed the shorter uphill par 5 (17?) with the narrow opening to the green.

I really enjoyed Arcadia.  I haven't seen Crystal or Kingsley, but consider Arcadia the best course I have played.  Most of this credit goes to the spectacular views, but I felt the lake fronting holes were used wisely and there is architecture supporting them as well.  I haven't played it since the re-routing.

Jeff

Eamon Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2005, 05:29:09 PM »
His Shenendoah course at Turning Stone in upstate New York is enjoyable enough. Definitely the lesser of the three courses there, but has some interesting holes. Even though it's fairly flat, the distance from some greens to the next tee makes it one of the least walker-friendly courses I've seen. Luckily I'm a lazy sod and wasn't planning to walk it anyway.

Nate Golomb

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2005, 07:21:17 PM »
DCronan ~ I play golf for Hope College in Holland, MI and our home course is Wuskowhan Players Club (yes in West Olive about 15 minutes north of Holland)...It is strictly a golfing club, no pool or tennis...I personally love the golf course but I cannot put my finger on the exact reason...It could be the immaculate conditioning, the framing of most of the holes by trees and/or dune grass, but definately the fact that when you're out there, you feel like you're the only group on the entire property. I would definately describe it as a member's course with extremely wide fairways and decent size greens with gentle slopes and a tier here and there. The bunkering is well done to frame some hillsides adjacent to fairways as well as some to grab a stray tee ball or approach. A par 71 with 5 par 3's and four 5's...The one-shotters range from 135 to 225 or so and the par 5's one or two are reachable the others over 550 and 600 yards. Overall it is an all around FUN place to play at 6850 yards from the tips with a fantastic practice facility and clubhouse...just remember not to wear your hat indoors  ;)

The holes (including virtual views and pictures) and more on Wuskowhan PC can be viewed at Wuskowhan.com

I've also played Arcadia Bluffs and the Rick Smith Signature at Treetops...Arcadia is a superb, breathtaking place that I believe has benefitted from it's re-routing giving it two distinct nines ending at the clubhouse. The lakeside holes as already mentioned are not only visually stunning, they are a stern test...But don't gawk at the views too much because the golf course will jump up and bit you...The Signature course at Treetops is fun but nothing phenomenal. We were one of the first groups off and it was very peaceful and pretty in the morning...If you're into elevated tees and/or greens on EVERY hole, this is the place for you  ::)

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2005, 07:34:53 PM »
I played Wuskowhan back in April when I was home in Michigan-I remember playing there in high school and being blown away, but the more I visit, the more I find that it just a good golf course. I don't like the par 5's #9 and 18 are almost exact alike with a creek in the front that makes them almost unreachable and unfair. #15 might be the worst par 3 ever-I know it's been changed since the opening of the course, but it has a Tillinghautst/Winged Foot style bunkering, while the rest of the course has Hurdzan/Fry bunkering. The conditioning is flawless and the way the course is routed through many native areas makes for some fun carries, but overall, I prefer Tullymore, Pilgrim's Run and Kingsley and even Ree's Thousand Oaks

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
« Last Edit: August 09, 2005, 07:53:47 PM by Anthony_Nysse »
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2005, 07:55:50 PM »
Nate,
  Yes, #9 and #18 almost mirror eachother. I spent alot of time there when I played golf at Unity Chr-Quite a rush for a 17 year old!!

Tony Nysse.
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI,SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

S. Huffstutler

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2005, 09:09:48 PM »
Even though his name is on the scorecard, Rick Smith didn't design Arcadia Bluffs... Warren Henderson did.

Steve

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2005, 10:04:20 PM »
I have been playing Turning Stone for the past several years in the NY State PGA championship and CPC tournaments.  I only know a couple of players who favored the Fazio over the Smith--they all carry the ball 280 to 300--which allows them to carry all the corner bunkers.  I think the Shennandoah course is by far the best course at Turning Stone.  I'm really surprised that anyone on this site would enjoy the RTJ jr. course.  The RTJ Jr. course features several holes where trees are used as aerial hazards to block shots into greens.  The 9th presents options in a split fairway, but the green is not sloped to favor one fairway over the other.  Also, there are only 4 greens that allow a reasonable run-up shot.  This could be one of the most penal courses I've played in the past several years.  On the other hand, I have not found one pro who even remotely disliked the Shenandoah course.  Every hole is angled so that where a drive ends up makes the approach easier or harder depending on pin location,etc. --it is not enough to be in the amply wide fairways.  High handicapers can play this course while the pro can be very well challenged.  It has yet to be really shot up in spite of awesome quality putting surfaces!  

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2005, 11:35:36 PM »
Bill,

I'm w/ Robert on this one. I found Shenendoah to be a great test. Like you said I loved the options on the 4th hole and found, far and away, his green complexes much more interesting. There we're a few holes which we're forgetable (#11). As you mentioned the drive on #8 w/ the fairway bunkering and #14 & #15 are two grwat back to back four's one long the other a drive & SW. How did you find 17? The last time I played it, it was into a brutal wind and just a tough hole. However it did give me the run up option.

RTJ's Kalyuat on the other hand was forgetable. It did have a few good holes way out where the course turns around (don't have  book or card handy), but most of the holes (especially the first few) offered little to no options. A few very tight holes (6&7 I think) felt very very forced. Did you find the routing more of an issue? Why is it out & back? I head a story that they tried to aquire some more land to the west but we're blocked, hence the routing as we see it.

Did not see Atonyute yet. Have seen a few pics and seems as though there is a very large man mad lake which a few holes are routed around to contrive some strategy.  >:(
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2005, 10:16:37 AM »
It is amazing how many teachers and tour players can become architects but rarely do you see an architect with the time to be a pga tour player or a teacher.  Could it be that being an architect just takes too much time?
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2005, 10:21:05 AM »
Mike,

What do you mean?  Are you trying to tell me I can't make an appointment with you next week so you can help me change my swing from a two-plane to a one-plane!?  I think someone needs to work on their time management skills... ;)

Keith.

Brent Hutto

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2005, 10:29:03 AM »
Mike,

A teacher or player can become an "architect" but have associates to whom they delegate all the messy details. That wouldn't work so well the other way 'round.

Imagine if you hung out your shingle as a golf teacher. A student comes in, you watch him play a few holes, have him hit a variety of shots on the range and then it's time to offer advice. So you say...
Quote
Well, starting with a big strong fellow like you I'd like to see something in a little higher ballflight and let's get some right-to-left action on those irons. I think you can pick up a few yards with the driver and see if you can carry most of those fairway bunkers. You also need a lot better distance control on your lag putts. I've got to leave for an appointement out of town so here's my associate Rick Smith who will spend the next few days figuring out how to get that high draw and working on your putting. I'll be back to check on you at the end of the summer.

Or imagine if you decided to become a Tour player. You'll decide on the best strategy for each hole and then have Jack Nicklaus step in and hit the shots. Hmmm, what's wrong with this picture?

Scott Witter

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2005, 02:13:06 PM »
I think it is important to recall the point of this thread, Rick Smith as architect.

I don't think it is possible to comment on this since Rick Smith wasn't the architect on any of the courses that carry his name.  Certainly his earlier courses were made to "work", and designed by Warren Henderson, golf architect.   Rick Smith is a teaching pro who has marketed himself quite well to succeed in various businesses.  Did he have input, I have no doubt, but being an GOLF ARCHITECT is a lot more than waving your hands around and sprinkling a few bunkers here and there and tilting this green that way...

I'm fairly certain we could keep all of the tour players on one hand who could actually be called architects.  Now, it could be me, but I think it takes a little more than just time to be a golf architect.  If I'm wrong, then I'm wasting my "time" and maybe I should get up each morning and hit balls for 5 hours and see where this takes me!

Ah yes, the "messy details" oh what a bother THEY are!  If only I could delegate, yeah, that's been what is missing from my portfolio...I forgot to hire some grunts so I could delegate all the work and I'll take the credit.  OH, THIS IS GOING TO BE SUCH FUN.  What have I been thinking all this "time"!

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2005, 05:34:57 PM »
Brent,
You have answered my question.
So I would assume an architect that spends 80 hours a week being an "architect" and 5 hours a week hitting balls would be a better architect than player and vice versa.  JMO
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2005, 05:41:16 PM »
Mike, it's a good thing you got Rymer on the team...

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2005, 05:11:28 PM »
Mike,

I'm just biding my time in architecture until I'm eligible for the Champions Tour.  I've got to grind it out for 5 1/2 more years.

Scott,

How do you know that Rick Smith doesn't design any of the courses which bear his name?  I know that he was pretty interested and involved in the early work at Treetops, and there was a lot of ducking and covering at Arcadia Bluffs when it was an environmental headline and not yet a top-ranked course.  However, his time is divided so many ways that his view of how much time he should be involved with a project has changed along the way.

Scott Witter

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2005, 06:54:54 PM »
Tom,

Can you describe what "pretty interested and involved" means in your terms?  I could be way off the mark, but I'm sure you and I and many other architects are more than pretty interested and involved...in our projects.

Maybe though, my definition or understanding of what an architect is or means in the profession is totally misunderstood and so therefore,  I guess I only have 2 more years to stay interested and involved before I am eligible for the Champions Tour.  So do you know many Architects who would duck & cover if the sh__t hits the fan at one of their projects/courses?

I'm thinking your time is divided in many ways and you too have adjusted your time spent on projects as well...depending on where your time is most valuable...other associates etc.. an so on.  But, don't you think as an Architect, your involvement is just a wie-bit more "involved" than Ricks?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2005, 09:38:33 PM »
Scott:

Rick thinks of himself as a "signature" architect, and he spends as much or more days on site than the majority of pros who are involved in design.  He's really tried to pattern himself after Tom Fazio as much as he can ... he learned a lot from the Fazio folks when they built their course at Treetops.  And, I know of some Fazio courses where Tom F. didn't spend any more time than Rick did at Arcadia Bluffs.

However, he certainly does not have the experience in design and construction, nor the experienced staff, that Tom Fazio does, and I'm not comparing the two.  I'm just saying it's about much more than the number of days someone spends on site.

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #20 on: August 11, 2005, 10:46:43 PM »
Scott,
What does Rick need to do for you to consider him an "Architect"?
I've spent quite a bit of time with Rick and would agree with Tom Doak that his involvement is much more than just a quick site visit and a couple of photo ops. I wish you could see the jeep he had at TreeTops.
Have you seen any of his work?
Do you know of his involvment at Arcadia?

Warren_Henderson

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2005, 12:07:37 AM »
As an admitted lurker of this site it has been some time since I last posted any comments. Reading the comments on this particular topic has pulled me out of my self imposed hibernation.

It appears that most of you know I worked with Rick on several projects over a 5 year period. In particular and in reference to comments in this thread I was responsible for the architecture on the Wuskowhan, Sharf, Shenendoah and Arcadia projects. The Signature Course at Treetops had been completed prior to my meeting Rick in late 1994.

For clarification I offer the following points.

Joel: While just about every square inch of Arcadia was touched by a bulldozer in shaping the course and developing the rugged look found on the western end of the property I would challenge the notion that this was a huge earth moving project. In fact there were scrappers on site for a period of time that did not exceed 24 working days.

Eamon: There are many issues that impact the final routing of any project. Often these issues include items not related to the topography, vegetation, site configuration, etc. In the case of Shenendoah there were issues that included future land development, the Client's desire to have holes situated along the property entrance and a direction to meet or exceed state and federal guidelines regarding environmentally sensitive areas. These all contributed to what is certainly less than the ideal routing because of the long connections on some holes. The Jones and Fazio courses that followed Shenendoah had the benefit of a revised policy on dealing with wetlands as the Oneida's developed a wetland bank to offset any impacts of these courses and other projects. This is why you will note better hole connections, particularly on the Jones course where there are extensive wetland areas.
 

Nate: For a guy who cannot pinpoint why he likes a particular course you do a good job of describing what sounds like a fine course of which to be a member.

Holes 9 and 18 are very different par fives with very different shot requirements and options. The green on 9 is set back from the wetland crossing and for the long hitter it affords an angle where the carry to the green can be attempted on the second shot. The 18th is a true 3 shot hole with less room for error on the third shot due to the angle of the green and the positioning of the hazards.

Anthony: Wuskowhan has the advantage of being a beautiful and serene setting for golf. Unfortunately the configuration of the property and the existence of extensive wetland systems prohibited a routing where there was no forced carry into a par five - there simply was not enough land unbroken by wetland to allow for a par five with no forced carry. This was and still is a disappointment in my eyes as I would prefer to have no more than one forced carry par five out of a possible 4 par five holes on any one course.

The 15th hole was not an after thought as some have suggested. For similar reasons (land configuration and wetland systems) the routing resulted in 5 par threes. It was a conscious decision to have a range of holes, including the short 15th and topping out at the 255 yard 6th. The area along the river was chosen for the short hole to include the encroaching river and prevailing wind as factors in playing the hole. When the wind does not cooperate the hole can certainly play significantly easier - the same can be said for the 7th at Pebble - without the wind its an easy wedge with a great view. Before I get any e-mails I am not comparing Wuskowhan to Pebble, its only an analogy.

Tom: As with many topics on this site you speak with what appears to be significant insider information. Unfortunatley on this topic your sources appear to be limited and your comments are a bit off the mark. It is completely unfair to throw out the "duck and cover" comment regarding the erosion incident at Arcadia. The fact is that with the exception of a regionally based marketing group, everyone who was actively involved with the project before the incident remained involved through the completion of the project. Ironically the marketing group departed over their concern as to how to put a spin on the problem versus the owners decision to face it head on and do the right thing. Rick had established his limited participation in the project long before the incident so it is not correct to imply that he choose to avoid the bad press at that time.

As far as the extent of Rick's involvement on projects, that is something you should discuss with everyone involved so you have a complete and accurate perspective. And I would ask you, if someone is not involved in developing new business, project planning, assiting in permiting, preparing drawings or specifications, and assiting in setting up construction costing and contracts how can it be about anything but the number of days someone spends on site seeing to the details as the project develops.

 

 

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2005, 07:18:09 AM »
Scott,
What does Rick need to do for you to consider him an "Architect"?


Shooter,
I think Warren Henderson gives a good answer to this in his last of his post.
Hope al is well.
Mike
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 07:19:06 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2005, 09:11:14 AM »
Warren:

I should have made it clear that I have no direct knowledge of what Rick Smith does or doesn't do on the courses that bear his name.  I haven't even visited with him in about ten years; I only knew him when he was doing those first couple of courses, where he appeared to be more involved.

But, since you chose your words carefully in describing what he didn't do on the courses you worked on together, I've gotta ask:  did you do the routings, too?  And did you decide how the greens were contoured?  More people here would attach importance to that, than to who drew the plans.

And while I'm at it, is Gary Player any more involved in his designs than Rick Smith was?

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Rick Smith as architect
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2005, 09:24:50 AM »
Warren:

I should have made it clear that I have no direct knowledge of what Rick Smith does or doesn't do on the courses that bear his name.  I haven't even visited with him in about ten years; I only knew him when he was doing those first couple of courses, where he appeared to be more involved.

But, since you chose your words carefully in describing what he didn't do on the courses you worked on together, I've gotta ask:  did you do the routings, too?  And did you decide how the greens were contoured?  More people here would attach importance to that, than to who drew the plans.

And while I'm at it, is Gary Player any more involved in his designs than Rick Smith was?

Is Jack Nicklaus any more involved as a partner with you in the Sebonack design than Gill Hanse was at Stonewall?  I've gotta ask:  did you do the routings, too?  And did you decide how the greens were contoured? Please feel free to describe in detail.

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