I've seen the 2005 list....

[Don Herdrich]

Like I have to say it.......this list is a joke.........Trump Nat/Int and The Bridge in the top 100???  I guess a 500K initiation guarantees that raters will love your course!  They should be ashamed to pander to these clubs.......

[Alex_Wyatt]

Just curious Don. Have you played TN or the Bridge?

[Mike_Cirba]

To Mike Cirba,  I am going back to Trump next month.  I;ll try to go as if I am playing it for the first time.  In other words with an open mind.  

Tommy,

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts.  Thanks.


Don Herdrich,

What does the initiation fee have to do with anything? Frankly, I don't care if it's 500K or $5.    

Should Stone Eagle be removed from future consideration due to the pricey nature of the club?

[Tom_Doak]

Wow.  I had about a week's advance notice of the results as they pertained to our courses, but I had not heard much about the rest of the list.  There are certainly some surprises there, but at least no one can say that the entire GOLF panel is biased in favor of one particular style of architecture or one designer; in fact it seems like they have come up with a list that NO individual would agree with in its entirety.

And it's nice to know that all three of the courses we've worked on are open to the public, and that no one was paid to go to any of them.

[George Pazin]

Woo hoo, 3 cheers for Barnbougle. I feel like a proud uncle.

I'm a little hurt that Tom M is choosing Matt over me. I guess maybe I should have done the heavy lifting after all....

[THuckaby2]

Ah, for a brief shining camelot of a month of two I was a 7... index got up to 6.8 or something... and hell, I played like a 7 (or worse) for a lot of golf at Sand Hills... and dammit if I could post those scores, I'd STILL be a 7 and I'd have a fighting chance in the stupid net tourney I'm playing in this weekend... But sadly I'm down to 4.2.

 

Now as for these courses, hell I haven't played either FH or TI so I know nothing.  Based on pics, though, well... let's just say this proves that it's a big beautiful golf world with room for all opinions.  Which of course I've always believed... so to me, it's no surprise at all how this comes out.

I just want to know these courses where raters are paid to play, that Tom Doak alludes to... of course I'd never do that, it's against all rules, not to mention ethics... but I'm just curious.    I recall Nine Bridges offering the GM fellows an all-expense paid trip, but wasn't that quashed by GM management?  Are their others?

[Mike_Cirba]

Well, that settles it:

Trump International is better than Friar's Head.

And I am not a man; I am a girl.

My wife is a dude.

Shiv,

I knew you'd "come out" sooner or later...  

Seriously, I'm not sure where you're getting that from the numbers.  Friar's Head finished 41 and Trump International at 73 in the US list.  Trump National finished at 48, which is deserved in my opinion, even though I'm pretty sure both you and Tom Doak thought I was nuts when I opined that it was in the Top 5 courses in NJ and a Doak Scale 8 a few weeks back.

Personally, I think Friar's Head is undervalued at that number.  If there are 25 courses better in the US I certainly haven't seen them all.  

[Brian_Gracely]

Shivas - the good news is that you can start playing from the Red tees and drinks are free before 10pm.

Huck - I'm offering to buy lunch for any rater that attends Dixie Cup II and does not provide glowing reviews of Tobacco Road....in hopes of keeping it OFF any rating list and subsequently avoiding any price increases.  





....oh yeah, and "I'm looking forward to playing those course, soon"

[Alex_Wyatt]

I was asking Don if he had played either because it sounded like he wrote the two courses off merely because they are expensive to join. (by the way, I understand both are still looking for members).

I don't love either course, but I wouldn't have loved them if they were 35 dollar munis, 200 dollar resort courses or whatever.  Who cares.

[Mike_Cirba]

Lakota Canyon, anyone?  

Sorry...couldn't resist.  

[Don Herdrich]

I have played all three once........and I will never see them again by my choice.  I would play Friars or Hidden Creek in a minute over these....

[Mike_Cirba]

Don,

I love to play Friar's Head and Hidden Creek, as well.  I believe FH is way undervalued on the listing at #41.

What specifically about Trump National is so objectionable that you'd never want to play it again, however?  I found it to be very unlike most Tom Fazio courses I've played, and I believe that it has a great set of greens, oriented to interesting and strategic approach shots.  

[Don Herdrich]

Trump National/International is all that is wrong with "new" Fazio designs.......play his old stuff like Wade Hampton/The Farm/Shadow Creek and tell me that these new ones stack up....they don't no matter what Mr Trump says.......

[Sean Leary]

I'm surprised a pirated copy of the entire list hasn't made it on here yet.  Kinda impressed actually.

When it does, we will have a another 15 page pissing match...

PS. Of course, I'm someone who was secretly hoping my home course would somehow make it, which it won't..

[Peter_Herreid]

Sean--

Perhaps it's better your place didn't make the list, so that it wouldn't get assailed by some in the crowd

Those of us up here now how good it is, and that will just have to do for now...

Now if you folks were to host the Senior-Celebrity NFL Charity Viagra Classic, or whatever they're calling that thing at Snoqualmie, at your place, the club's Q rating right go up

When Tumble Creek opens up, perhaps some "raters" will head over the mountains to see AF...

Peter

[Sean Leary]

Peter,

You can't play a Doak and a Fazio on the same trip.  That would be blasphemy around here They'll drive right past to play Mr. Robinson's course down the road.

I have not made it to Tumble Creek (or Suncadia) yet, but it will certainly help the NW in terms of high profile courses. I'm surprised that Bandon hasn't improved Eugene CC's visability more than it has.....

[Mike_Cirba]

Trump National/International is all that is wrong with "new" Fazio designs.......play his old stuff like Wade Hampton/The Farm/Shadow Creek and tell me that these new ones stack up....they don't no matter what Mr Trump says.......

Don,

Can you be more specific in what you found objectionable about the golf course at Trump National?

I haven't played any of the three you mentioned, but Geoff Childs has played Shadow Creek and he prefers Trump National.  

[Jerry Kluger]

I think that many who have not played TN feel it must be over the top with watefalls and incredibly flashy bunkers with no consideration of contours and shot making - well, they're wrong.  It is a really solid course with a great variety of holes and well conditioned with a superintendent who tries to keep it hard and fast.  The course does not feel overly manufactured and plays well within the land and the surroundings.  The bunkers are well done and only in a couple of instances do you feel that perhaps there is a bit too much flash to them.  There are some really good short par 4s with risk/reward options and there are some really strong long par 4s.  It is my belief that in the case of TN both the owner and the architect wanted to produce a real quality golf course and were less concerned with how much a member could impress their guests with a glitzy golf course.  

[Alex_Wyatt]

Jerry, What is the point of speculating about what other people who haven't seen the course expect? People who have seen the course ( like me) think its dreadfully overrated. There is nothing new here. This is Hudson with easier green to tee walks. Its generic, well manicured golf. The short par four 11th is a joke as far as strategy. If that's the best Faz can do trying to do something clever, too bad for him.

[Mike_Cirba]

The short par four 11th is a joke as far as strategy. If that's the best Faz can do trying to do something clever, too bad for him.

Alex,

Can you elaborate on why you consider the strategy of the short par four 11th to be a joke.

Here's the hole layout.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Mike,

From the air, that looks pretty strategic.
I'd have put the forward tees on the right, but cart path design, is a higher priority of theirs than mine.
Maybe rightfully so...

I'm interested to hear Alex's take on the hole.

[Alex_Wyatt]

The problem with the hole, is that from the right set of tees everybody can take the water out of play by hitting the ball over the bunker, to the fairway left of the water. The water is then completely out of play on the second shot as well. So, where there is supposed to be a choice, everybody does the same thing.

If a hole is strategic, everybody doesn't end up going the same way. It reminded me of that double fairway at Riv where everybody chooses the same side.

[Jerry Kluger]

Alex: Perhaps my problem is that I don't feel some courses are "dreadfully overrated".  I might disagree with the assessment of others but "dreadfully overrated" is far beyond my qualifications to evaluate a course.  Many view Friar's Head as overrated because of the holes out the in the field, and to me, they are missing the strategy in those holes.  Others feel that Hidden Creek is overrated because they view the property as boring, but I enjoyed it tremendously.  To my mind TN is very well done and perhaps deserves some recognition, but it surely does not deserve to be offhandedly dismissed as "nothing new".

[Alex_Wyatt]

I was referring to its rating in GM. So, its certainly relevant to for me to say that Top 100 in World "overrates" the course's quality.

[Don Herdrich]

I am far from anti-Fazio.....I even belong to a Fazio course (which I think is one of this better newer works).....I do not blame or dislike TF more because of his involvement with Trump Nat, I just think TN is over the top...and I have played it........I guess we agree to disagree on this one

and TN being better than Shadow Creek is a stretch, Fazio did revolutionary work out in the desert, there is nothing revolutionary about TN........