[Jim Nugent]

Tony Chapman,

Creating the facilities for a complex that would be all things to all people is expensive, and risky.

I don't know that a golf course with a limited season is a strong enough draw, and, I don't think that most people want to travel all day, and then make daily trips to nearby golf courses.

I love Wild Horse, but, even with a hotel/resort, I doubt that I would return anytime soon just to play that one golf course.

I doubt that 4 public golf courses could sustain themselves, and, if the clubs were private, would they permit outside play when they have a limited season for their membership ?

The addition of a casino might help, but would the legislature approve such a facility.

On the surface it seems like a natural, but, when you do the math, it seems risky at best.

Patrick, you make some good points that are logical enough.  We havenīt really done the math, though.  That would mean putting real numbers on the table for costs and revenues.  If we did, we might find that the project works out quite well.  Obviously would have to use lots guesstimates.  As you rightly point out, the more ancillary revenues the better.  

Iīd be interested to see some projections with real numbers.  I wonder if Sand Hills is in good shape financially?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Nugent,

Ample reserves coupled with a product that was a labor of love from a wealthy benefactor tend to insure the survival of a club irrespective of the annual operating finances.

But, I would be interested in knowing the details.

[Tom_Doak]

I spoke with Nicklaus a while at Sebonack about his work at Dismal River (he had just been there a few days earlier), and he was positively giddy about it, telling me they had moved only 2000 cubic yards of earth to build the greens.  They've plowed in all the irrigation now and are starting to regrass it while they're digging bunkers.

I was curious to see it before.  I'm really curious now.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom,

Does Nicklaus know about Ballyneal?  Did he express interest in seeing it when finished?

[Tom_Doak]

Scott,

Yes, and no.  Then again, by Jack's own admission, Friars Head is the first course he's gone to see in several years, other than his own work and whatever tournaments he's played in.

His company is working on something like 40 courses right now, so I can't imagine he would have much time to go look at others.  I know the feeling; even though I'm only working on three, I can't justify going around to play National or The Bridge instead of spending another day trying to make Sebonack better.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I thought he might have expressed that interest to you as a professional gesture that you may have said about Dismal River since both of you are simultaneously working on sandhills courses not super far from each other (certainly for him with a helicopter).

Do you know if he has ever played National before?  And what his thoughts of it are?

[Mike Benham]

so maybe 75 founders @ $20-25k each??

Heck, count me in, maybe I'll take two, that's less than a year's tuition ... wouldn't that be a cool college graduation present for my son(s) ...

[Bob_Huntley]

With all this talk of golfing in far flung destinations is anyone here just absolutely fed up with the hassle of airline travel? I know I am and I turn down any number of offers to play some of the scrumptious courses that are available to me. Perhaps it's a question of age, but when I get patted down in my bare feet and an Osama look-alike walks on by I get sorely aggravated.

Pat Mucci spoke of the fact that a couple of days at Sand Hills really became a four day jaunt.

[Tony_Chapman]

Mr. Huntley - Maybe Brian would just build you a cabin and you could come for weeks at a time. I know I would enjoy getting to know you a little better.

Tony

[Andy Doyle]

Based on where this land is located, it would almost have to be private.  This is the one side of the potential project that sort of rubs me the wrong way.  While I love the idea of no tee-times and playing whenever you want, I also buy into alot of the ideas about golf being about comraderie (ie. play w/ friends or strangers...who could become friends), as well as club members simply being "keepers of the land" that should be shared by others than want to experience the golf.

I think this public v. private idea was discussed recently in another thread ....  Would this not be the perfect type of private club in the GBI tradition?  Private, yet welcoming of the public.  Or, are we too "American" to accept this idea?

I would think a course in this remote area would mostly attract the type of "public" golfers that would truly appreciate the golf, and not the cart-hockey, Jack Daniels swilling, cart-girl harrassing types that go to Myrtle Beach or Vegas.

AD

[Brian_Gracely]

I'll tell you what Andy....

If something like this ever gets built, we will have a standing policy (unstated of course, so Pat Mucci or the ADA can't try and sue us) that anyone that writes the club a nice letter will be able to be a "unaccompanied guest" of the owners.  

....but if you show up with a golf towel from a course in Myrtle Beach, we'd kindly ask you to leave it in your car while on the grounds.  

[Andy Doyle]

Perfect.  Will there be a club secretary a la Muirfield that will check for said contraband and decide who's letter is nice enough?

AD

[Jim Nugent]

I'll tell you what Andy....

If something like this ever gets built, we will have a standing policy (unstated of course, so Pat Mucci or the ADA can't try and sue us) that anyone that writes the club a nice letter will be able to be a "unaccompanied guest" of the owners.  

....but if you show up with a golf towel from a course in Myrtle Beach, we'd kindly ask you to leave it in your car while on the grounds.  

How about if you show up with two showgirls from Vegas?  

[Andy Doyle]

How about if you show up with two showgirls from Vegas?  

That would significantly help your chances of getting into MY club.  

AD

[Jim Nugent]

How about if you show up with two showgirls from Vegas?  

That would significantly help your chances of getting into MY club.  

AD

Leave in the car, or take on the grounds?

[Brian_Gracely]

Jim,

All guests would be required to register with the club prior to any visits.  All players would be expected to have their own set of clubs and a valid handicap.  Two Ball matches would always have priority.  Proper golf attire is required, although consideration would be made for local ranchers wearing "work clothes".    

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

Are you familiar with the limitations on daily play at Sand Hills ?

Are you familiar with developers, with proven track records on developing golf course's, concerns with respect to ADA requirements ?

[George Pazin]

Could someone speak knowledgeably (sp?) about the issues Pat raises?

Jim -

Your guests will be welcome at my club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

Are you familiar with the limitations on daily play at Sand Hills ?

When did I say anything in this thread about Sand Hills?

I asked you a simple question, are you familiar with the limitations on daily play at Sand Hills ?
If you're not, don't try to bluff your way through the question, avoid or divert attention from it.   A simple yes or no will suffice[/color]

Are you implying that the grass as Sand Hills is different that elsewhere in the region, such that it can't accomodate additional traffic?  [/color]

NO, that's your inference.[/color]

Or are you implying that other courses in the area should try and replicate the amount of play at Sand Hills just because of their high ranking? [/color]

NO, again, that's your inference.[/color]

Or are you implying that just because you returned from a trip there that you are now an expert on the club and their business? [/color]

No, I'm implying that the amount of time I spent discussing issues with Dick Youngscap enlightened me with respect to many facets of Sand Hills.

My information is from the horses mouth, whereas your comments are out of your ass, which you don't seem to know from your elbow or first base.[/color]

Are you familiar with developers, with proven track records on developing golf course's, concerns with respect to ADA requirements ?

Yes, I am familiar with individuals that have been involved with building courses in that part of the country.  

Whom, and where have they developed golf courses in Nebraska ?[/color]

One of them stayed at my house during the US Open.  As a matter of fact, he saw your previous comments on another thread about ADA and basically said that you were over-reacting, and that the bunkers at Wild Horse are no less steep or unaccessible to ADA people than Sand Hills...[/color]
Then he doesn't know what he's talking about.

We carefully examined the bunker access and egress at Wild Horse and Sand Hills and they are as different as night and day, as are the configurations of the bunkers.

Sand Pro's routinely groom the bunkers at Wild Horse.
Sand Pro's can't groom many of the bunkers at Sand Hills.

Have you played Wild Horse and Sand Hills ?[/color]

and that every project needs to make their own decisions about how to handle legal issues.

It appears to be less of a problem for private clubs and more of a problem for public access clubs, which may impact the architecture, and as a result, make them less appealing, which could impact their ability to prosper or survive[/color]  

[Jim Nugent]

Obviously all sorts of issues need to be addressed before the project could get funded and started.  A little surprised to see the animosity.  Some old history a newcomer like me doesnīt know about perhaps.  

[Craig Sweet]

No Mucci just like to engage in arguments. I'm still waiting for him to cite New jersey law on an alledged "takings" issue, or spotted owl habitat issue, or some such thing he posted on a few months ago.

As for the ADA business, you have to make a "reasonable" accomadation.

[Tony_Chapman]

Brian - Would you like to have dinner with me when you come to Nebraska?  

[Craig Sweet]

Helpful ADA info.


http://ncaonline.org/golf/

[Patrick_Mucci]

Craig Sweet,

You must have been out of the country when the Supreme Court affirmed the "taking" of private land for private use.

Your ignorance on the subject is astounding.

Brian Gracely,

Now you're blaming the lack of dinner invitations for your ignorance on the subject matter being discussed ?
That's your fault, not mine.

P.S. Dinner, the conversation and the company were great.
      And, Dick Youngscap is a terrific, down to earth fellow.

      But, I'm sure your friend knows more about Sand Hills than
      he does.

[Craig Sweet]

Pat Mucci...I'm still waiting for you to post the NJ law regarding the owl nesting on your friends property. I doubt you'll ever post it.

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