Who influenced the great designers of yore?

[DMoriarty]

In the Scotland's Gift,  MacDonald begins and ends his Architecture chapter by quoting landscape architects.  He starts the chapter by quoting "the great Humphrey (sic)Repton," and ends by quoting "another great landscape architect, Prince Puckler."   Additionally, throughout the book he also quotes the poet Alexander Pope, who was also a renouned landscape gardener.  

What did Humphry Repton (1752-1818), Prince Herman von Puckler-Muskau (1785-1871), and Alexander Pope (1688-1744) all have in common?  For one thing, they were all significant influences on the so-called Arts and Crafts landscape architects.  For another, they all had somewhat similar approaches to the role of nature . . .

Puckler espoused an appreciation for native vegetation and his insistence that pleasure grounds should represent nature—nature arranged for the use and comfort of man—and should be true to the character of the country and climate to which they belonged. For this reason, the prince permitted the planting only of trees and shrubs that were native or thoroughly acclimated to the area, avoiding foreign ornamental plants. (http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/mcclelland/mcclelland2b.htm)

Pope believed that the landscape designer should aim to capture and draw out the inherent essence of the landscape – "Consult the Genius of the Place". He should work with Nature not against her, paying attention to separate details, so that “parts answ'ring parts shall slide into a whole”. (http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=6679)

Similarly, Repton believed that  "All rational improvement of grounds is, necessarily founded on a due attention to the character and situation of the place to be improved."

MacDonald was not the only golf course designer interested in landscape architecture.   In 1915, Max Behr writes of the birth of golf course architecture, noting that it must have come after "that period which saw the birth of those geometrically designed abortions . . .."   According to Behr, the golf course architect should have "a proper feeling for a landscape . . ." when locating bunkers.  Behr continues by comparing this aspect of golf course architecture to landscape architecture, and quotes Repton at length:  

     The perfection of landscape gardening consists in the four following requisites: First, it must display the natural beauties and hide the natural defects of every situation. Secondly, it should give the appearance of extent and freedom, by carefully disguising or hiding the boundary. Thirdly, it must studiously conceal every interference of art, however expensive, by which the scenery is improved, making
the whole appear the production of nature only; and fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort, if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming proper parts of the general scenery, must be removed or concealed.
--Max Behr, Golf Illustrated & Outdoor America, June, 1915, No. 3, p. 20.

I'm curious, what other golf course designers of your were influenced by landscape design?  

[SPDB]

Isn't this just the A&C question in different clothing?

[DMoriarty]

Isn't this just the A&C question in different clothing?

Not sure there was a specific "A&C question."  If there was one then I am not sure what it was.  This definitely could be a part of an Arts and Crafts analysis--  Tom MacWood does discuss Repton, but not as a direct source of inspiration for golf course architects.  I dont think Tom or anyone else identified specific sources of direct influence or inspiration in that discussion.  

So, while the overlap with the arts and crafts discussion is certainly there, I purposefully tried to partition out a more narrow and manageable inquiry, one which has not been adequately explored.  

Certainly we are capable of talking about various direct influences on golf course designers without simultaneuously trying to answer the "arts and crafts question," aren't we?  

[David Kelly]

Colt built the original nine hole Stoke Poges course (course from the film, Goldfinger) at the Stoke Park Club in  1908 and he routed it through parkland originally landscaped by Humphrey Repton.

http://www.stokeparkclub.com/golf/course.htm
http://golf-man.com/courses/features/stokepark/windsor.jpg
http://golf-man.com/courses/features/stokepark/hole7.jpg
http://www.uk-golfguide.com/images/courses/26600_2.jpg

[T_MacWood]

David
It is a fascinating question; unfortunately not an easy one to answer definitively. It is something that is of great interest to me personally, attempting to discover why a particular architect's style developed the way it did.

When I'm looking into a specific architect I always try to find as much as I can about his interests and early experiences. For example Tom Simpson was a devoted artist, in fact during his life there were a few times when his direction could have shifted away from golf and toward art. I discovered that two of his major influences were John Low and John Ruskin.

The diverse background of the architects of that period is one of the reasons I find the period so interesting. You've got Roman Catholic priests (Gannon), Artists (Simpson), Doctors (MacKenzie), English professors (Banks). Architects (Hoffman), Lawyers (Colt), etc. etc....I'm still searching for a baker or a bread maker.

[ForkaB]

Dave

You'd be struggling to include Pope in the A&E movement, as he died in 1744.  But, he did eulogise Isaac Newton at the latter's funeral, so he probably knew a thing or two about gravity......

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I wouldn't dismiss Pope too quickly. I was under the impression that he designed a course just outside London. Laurence Sterne usually gets co-designer credit. As I recall the course was called Paradise Shandy or something like that. Johnson noted several times that the design was inconsistent, the holes alternating between severely penal and ridiculously quirky. It think the course is NLE.


Bob

[TEPaul]

I think most architects, say following WW1, were in some sense influenced by the principles of the "art" of landscape architecture. Certainly before WW1 there were a notable few who promoted and proposed it's general principles in golf architecture. Why did they do that? Probably in attempts to imbue golf architecture with more naturalism and a heightened look of naturalism and nature. After all, these were the architects who felt golf should be played in what appeared to be a "natural setting". This was Behr's philosophy and his reasons why that should be so are many, and varied, and ultimately extremely interesting and go far beyond just the art of landscape architecture!

The "art" (or "landscape art or landscape architecture") principles of Harmony, Proportion, Balance, Rhythm and Emphasis were all applied and later basically taught to many architects as a prerequisite of golf architecture.

However, as regards that quotation of Repton that Macdonald and Behr used, there is one facet of it that's interesting and that Tom MacWood singled out on here a number of years ago when that same quote was posted on here.

Tom MacWood said he disagreed with it, and so do I, and I always have. That facet in Repton's quote is that natual defects should be removed or minimized by the golf course architect as they clearly are supposed to be in Repton's conception of landscape architecture. Why is that a landscape architectual dictate of Reptons? Probably because they may be somewhat unsettling or unsoothing to look at. Landscape architecture's principle function certainly is to create something soothing to look at. Olmstead's philosophy is chocked full of many reasons why this is benefical to man. Golf course architecture's function, however, is unquestioable a little bit more than just creating something soothing to look at!  

But nevertheless natural defects are Nature's way and nature does not always have to be soothing and settling to look at, and sometimes it probably isn't---at least not as it applies to golf course architecture.

Obviously, if a golf course architect applies that concept of removing natural defects too diligently he will begin to "idealize" the look of Nature in golf course design and architecture and in a real sense that is not benefical for golf and its architecture, in my opinion, and in Tom MacWood's opinion and most likely in Max Behr's opinion, and probably other of the architects who were influenced by his philosophies and writing.

Golf, and it's architecture in the mind of Behr was supposed to be a vying against Nature in about half the construct of the sport (this is actually why he made the distinction between golf as a "sport" as opposed to golf as a "game") and that was supposed to be raw nature, not necessarily some "idealized" version or look of it. On the other hand Behr was certainly realistic in noting a few exceptions in golf and architecture to this principle and philosophy (tees, fairways, greens and sand where sand was not naturall occuring).

The other disagreement I have with art or landscape architecture principles as they apply to golf and golf architecture is this part about "Emphasis". Emphasis in golf course architecture is defined (by C&W) as 'drawing the eye to the most important part'. In my mind if drawing the eye to the most important part is always or generally where the golfer is SUPPOSED to hit the ball, I do not agree with that. Taken to an extreme that becomes golf on a "yellow brick road" or what's become known on here as "shot dictation".

My philosophy is a golfer in what appears to be a natural setting, or a well constructed simulacrum of it, should look out there and be able to decide for himself where he should hit the ball---where he should and shouldn't go, in other words, just as the sportsman in raw nature (the fisherman or hunter et al). Only in this way will he feel he's actually conceived of and executed his own strategies, and when that's done well and done successfully, produces a feeling of mental and psychological gratification in his vying against Nature. In my opinion not much in golf and its architecture is better than that.

[Tom_Doak]

Dr. MacKenzie was profoundly influenced by his service in the Boer War in South Africa, and his observation of the Boers' use of camouflage to wipe out a larger British force.  I've read the couple of articles he wrote on camouflage for the military, and it is clear that this was a traumatic experience for him, and that it had a lot to do with his later thoughts on making golf courses look natural.

I have a vague idea I've read a passage from MacKenzie somehwere which is sort of critical of 19th-century English landscape gardening as unnatural, but I may be mistaken since I can't think where it would be.

[TEPaul]

"I have a vague idea I've read a passage from MacKenzie somehwere which is sort of critical of 19th-century English landscape gardening as unnatural, but I may be mistaken since I can't think where it would be."

TomD:

That may be---Mackenzie may've said that but perhaps you're thinking of some of the prevalent complaints of some of the most notable landscape architects of the 19th and 20th century, most certainly Olmstead, to the idea of "gardening" applied too much to the principles and application of natural landscape architecture.

Essentially, Olmstead believed that no one aspect in truly soothing landscape architecture should draw attention to itself and the prevalence of little flowers or whatnot in a true "gardening" sense did that to the best kind of landscape architecture. Olmstead and the others believed the setting created should affect the senses basically as a "whole" and not as "parts" of some whole.

Olmstead (or his father) actually had a peculiar human test for that. He said if a setting made a person audibly comment on it there was something wrong. He felt the most soothing and successful landscape settings should only evoke 'quiet contemplation'.

You are certainly right to say that MacKenzie's unique ideas on milatary camouflage (particularly trench camouflage) is pretty much a construct and philosophy in and of itself as applied to golf course architecture, and one can't deny it was followed in principle by Mackenzie and others. Nothing much has much less to do with the Arts and Crafts Movement than that.  

[T_MacWood]

Tom D.
I don't recall MacKenzie ever saying anything negative about 18th C. or 19th C. English garden design, but he certainly never mentioned it has any influence either (and is there any doubt he would have if it had been an influence).

He saw golf architecture as closely allied to the art of sculpture, molding the land rather than aranging plant material....which goes back to what you said about his major influence being the Boer's camouflage techniques, their ability to hide the hand of man. A fascinating subject.

I'd love to learn what Thompson was in to....what his interests and influences were.

[TEPaul]

" don't recall MacKenzie ever saying anything negative about 18th C. or 19th C. English garden design, but he certainly never mentioned it has any influence either (and is there any doubt he would have if it had been an influence)."

Tom MacWood:

I don't recall him ever saying anything negative about English garden design either. I'm not sure I recall him saying anything one way or the other about it as it applied to golf course architecture if in fact he ever thought much about that. His feelings about camouflage and the principles of the Boer military trench construct of it to golf architecture certainly was utmost in his mind for a long period.

Is there any doubt he would've said something about English garden or English landscape architecture if it'd been a primary influence on his philosophies on golf course architecture? Probably not much doubt at all, and that's precisely why I've always said one does not necessarily have to find something in writing to the contrary to prove what someone may've thought. One probably just needs to look at what were primary influences that were obvious and were mentioned by those subjects under discussion and basically stick with that. Seems to be a logical and fairly commonsensical way to go and to deduce things.

[BCrosby]

In his 1920 book, MacK criticizes Victorian golf designs as unnatural and artificial. But I don't recall him saying anything about Victorian landscaping generally. I'll check again tonight.

Bob

 

[RJ_Daley]

There are all these thoughts of intellectual pursuits of golf course design, and there is that studious component.  But, I believe that the person and atmosphere that influenced GCA more than anyone or any place else was Old Tom Morris, in daily conversation whilst at his shop.  I think that more gca knowledge was imparted, dissected, and debated as to the merits of various features to be included in a constructed golf course, occurred in that shop than any study hall, or lecture hall on any campus.  

Almost all the old masters include their comments of spending time at TOC and their time with Old Tom.  Some worked for him, and played the old course routinely, then retired to the shop to work, chat, and it was an ongoing seminar of GCA for many years.  Of the old grand masters of GCA that didn't actually have personal contact or make a pilgrimage to see old Tom, they at least knew someone in their immediate circle of confidants who did have that close tie to Old Tom Morris.

[TEPaul]

I hate to in any way redirect a thread of David Moriarty's because he seems to insist that threads stick to the specific topic of the title or initial post but probably as applicable as who influenced the great designers of yore would be what influenced them.

I'm certainly not saying it was the only influence but can there be any doubt TOC was what seemed to influence so many of the great ones? If not, then one wonders why they all seemed to point to it, and speak about and write about it  that way.

[BCrosby]

Good question.

Can anyone think of a well-known architect before Tom Fazio who did not think TOC was the starting point for the education of an architect?

Bob

[Tom_Doak]

Seth Raynor?  At least I'm pretty sure he never went to study The Old Course first-hand, although getting a few drawings from Macdonald might count in the same way as analyzing a course by digital photos.

Bill Coore has never been there either, or at least not as of a couple years ago.

[BCrosby]

I thought of Seth Raynor. He was such a diligent student of CB, my guess is that a trip to TOC would have been icing on a cake that had TOC aleady baked in.

As for Bill Coore, Ben was always there at his shoulder.

The near unanimity of views among professional architects about the standing of TOC is amazing. Reaching back as far as Robertson. It's taken so much for granted we often forget to notice.

Bob

[TEPaul]

William Flynn never went to Europe. Even Tillinghast began to write rather early on that the new wave of American architects thanked their original mentors from Europe but that they no longer needed to 'sit at their knee and learn'. Tillinghast spoke of a new American type of architecture he referred to as 'modern' or 'scientific'.

It's probably not unusual at all that so many went to see Old Tom Morris seeing as where he spent most of his career and seeing as he probably was basically the second golf architect in the "Golf architect's family tree"----right behind Alan Robertson who most assume to be the first golf architect there was.

A few of the golf writers and golf analysts from the past have also sort of deduced that Old Tom may not have been all that good either---and certainly not particularly sophisticated in what he produced in architecture compared to what was to come in the decades following him. They say he may've been pretty basic and perhaps fairly rudimentary with the craft.

[James Bennett]

The near unanimity of views among professional architects about the standing of TOC is amazing. Reaching back as far as Robertson. It's taken so much for granted we often forget to notice.

I was watching our satellite TV the other night and a 30 minute segment on RT Jones Jr was shown.  He certainly knows his way around different parts of the world.  He was equally effusive in his praise for TOC, and a number of the other classic golden-age designs.  A poetry writer as well (I didn't know that, not that it matters).  The show went through a number of his designs around the world, and their apparent artistry (I couldn't see any obvious links with many aspects of the TOC in those).  I have the feeling that some of the aspects of TOC have influenced him, but not necessarily all of the aspects.

Please note - I have played one RTJones Jr course.  I do not profess to be knowledged on his style or works.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks for your responses.

Does anyone know anything about the history of the Stokes Poge course?  Did Colt or anyone else write anything about Colt's design there?   I saw online that Kyle Phillips claims to have studied Repton, and at one point said something like that he tried to design The Grove (surveyed by Repton) as Repton would have demanded of Colt.  It would be interesting to what he was thinking when he said that . . .


Tom Doak,

I thought about the camoflauge connection to MacKenzie, but recently read one of his old articles that left me wondering whether it might have been that his experience as a golf course architect shaped his view of camoflauge, rather than the reverse.  I'll take another look at the article and try to figure out what gave me that impression.  

___________________

Certainly the preceding links golf courses influenced these guys, TOC chief among them.   I am equally certain that they were also reacting to the "geometric abortions" which immediately preceded their work.   Further, they were influenced by earlier golfers and golf writers, such as Low and Hutchinson.   I was hoping to move outside of the world of golf to see who may have influenced the way these guys viewed the world.  

_____________________________

You'd be struggling to include Pope in the A&E movement, as he died in 1744.  But, he did eulogise Isaac Newton at the latter's funeral, so he probably knew a thing or two about gravity......

I'd be struggling to include any of them in the A&C Movement, as two of the three were long dead, and the other didnt even make it until the phrase was turned.  That is why I referred to them as "influences" on the so-called A&C landscapers.   But again, the whole "A&C question" is rather beside the point.

[DMoriarty]

Tom Doak,

The article to which I refer above is probably a reprint of the one discussed at page 41 in your Life and Work of Dr. Alister MacKenzie.  I assume the article was reprinted in the next month's edition of Golf Illustrated-- the photographs are definitely the same.  

At one point MacKenzie writes:

It may be asked what earthly connection is there between golf course construction and trench making?  The connectijon consists in the imitation of nature.  The whole secret of successful course construction and concealment in trench making consists in making artificial features indistinguishable from natural ones, and for the last ten years I have been daily attempting to imitate nature.  

Life and Work expands on this article and in so doing fits this topic nicely . . .  MacKenzie's notes and lectures on camoflauge were published in 1917, but not under MacKenzie's name.  The work was titled was published by the Professional Memoirs Corps of Engineers, United States Army and Engineer Department and was titled:  "Entrenchment and Camouflage; Lecture by a British Army Officer Skilled in Landscape Gardening."   Further, MacKenzie apparently had marketed himself as a Landscape Gardener on his letterhead in Leeds.  

Life and Work notes that the above all "serves to emphasize the closeness of MacKenzie's work to that of 'Capability' Brown, the doyen of British garden and estate landscapers." (42)

Repton, discussed in the first post above, is considered to be Brown's successor, and was a defender of Brown's work.  

Tom, is it possible that you saw MacKenzie's criticism of Victorian Gardening in his published camoflauge papers?  

[T_MacWood]

David
I don't recall Colt ever mentioning Repton or any other garden designer. There is an article written by Darwin about his experiene following Colt around as he laid out Stoke Poges...but I've evidently lost the article (misplaced it anyway), so I can't tell you if Darwin mentioned Repton or not.

[TEPaul]

"Tom Doak,

I thought about the camoflauge connection to MacKenzie, but recently read one of his old articles that left me wondering whether it might have been that his experience as a golf course architect shaped his view of camoflauge, rather than the reverse."

David:

Mackenzie appears to have written fairly comprehensively about what it was about the Boers that influnenced his thinking on trench camouflage and how that influenced his thinking of camouflage techniques as applied to golf architectrue (his quote posted above is pretty explicit on that). Mackenzie's Boer War experience was in Boer War (1899-1902). He did not become involved in golf architecture until some years after that--perhaps 1907.

[DMoriarty]

Tom MacWood,  I'd be interested in taking a look at that Darwin article, if you ever find it.


Tom Paul,  I dont think that above quote is far from explicit about that.   The quote doesnt mention the Boer War at all, and neither does the article.   To the contrary,  MacKenzie is essentially arguing that he is qualified to lecture Generals about camoflauge techniques because he has been been building golf courses (and landscape gardening?) for the past decade.

Nonetheless, after reviewing Life and Time, I agree that MacKenzie's experience in the Boer War definitely had an influence on how he viewed man's capabilities to imitate nature by manipulating the landscape.  

TomPaul, does the Life and Time discussion regarding MacKenzie's possible "landscape gardening" expertise cause pause regarding your outright dismissal of landscape gardening as a potential source of inspiration or study for MacKenzie?

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