[John_Conley]

The Wie camp knows that amateur golf is not such an automatic item -- better to stay away and protect her coveted status as the next best thing since Tiger. The marketing gurus at IMG already know this and best of all so does her dad.

Matt, you asked a question and received a few answers.  Now we find out you had YOUR answer already.  What is the point of this thread.

Newsflash:  Michelle Wie doesn't answer to Matt Ward.

[Craig Sweet]

Gee Matt Ward, Michelle Wie DID beat up on her PEERS. Just check her Junior record in Hawaii. On top of that, she moved up a notch at age 13 and won the Public Links...I can't blame her for not wanting to play against 12 year olds again, can you?

I just don't understand why OLD WHITE GUY sportswriters can't just sit back and enjoy her golf career for what it is?  I mean, a 15 year old BOY, competeing and beating MEN,on the PGA tour would have male sportswriters creaming in their pants with excitment!! "THE NEXT TIGER"....and "MOVE OVER TIGER!"

But no, she's a young girl, so EVERY excuse has to be found to basher her because she is so threatening.

[mikes1160]

Matt,

Take it to Geraldo. He can't wait to hear from you.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim:

Appreciate the thoughtful reply but you sidestepped my main points.

The Wie team know full well that if she had played in the Women's Amateur she is EXPECTED to win. That's a whole different story when you play in a professional event and know full well that even if you fall flat on your face you still have the "I'm only 15" excuse ready to fire at anyone who inquires on what happened.

I'd like to see Wie play in an event in which she is the overwhelming favorite and then does what such favorites do -- win and win comfortably.

Look, she knows what happened the last time she played in the Girl's Junior. She got beat and you could see the pressure on her for every match PRECISELY for the reasons I indicated at the outset -- being the favorite is entirely different than just being a face in a pro event.

Jim -- I love the refrain "wasting one's time." Hate to bust the bubble but Wie has not exactly conquered the amateur world just yet. And that's my point -- the Wie team know full well that if she were to lose a few amateur events the whole notion that Wie is the "next whatever" would take a few hits and there would be some bumping down in the marketing $$ she would command when she turns pro. Frankly, I can see the reasons why they duck such events from a straight marketing position.

The "spin" argument that Wie is beyond amateur level play is a canard. She advanced a few rounds at the Public Links but let's hold all the roses being thrown her way. How bout a spot on the Walker Cup team if she really is thaaaaaat good?  

The folks in her camp know that staying predominantly at the pro level provides adequate "cover" whether she does well or even poorly. It's a very slick to position herself but I want to see the wins first. If the amateurs were such easy prey then why not demonstrate that and shut people like me up for good?

Last thing Jim -- ask Pressel or Park if they think Wie is ducking them for the event being held in the Atlanta area? I'd love to hear their answer if they were truly candid.

Matt, wasnīt sidestepping your main points.  Was suggesting they donīt apply, or at least are secondary.  Here are the first two sentences you wrote:

"Before all the hounds begin to yelp and bark I have to hand it to the folks marketing Michelle Wie. They have simply bypassed any of the events that might impede the future marketing $$$ of Michelle."

My point is they are not side-stepping events, or basing decisions mostly on marketing.  They are picking events that best build her golf game.  The U.S. Amateur is a good example.  She had to choose between the Open and the amateur.  Which tests her better?  The Open, without question IMO.  

Itīs the difference between major league baseball and the minors.  A kid hits .350 in the big leagues, but hasnīt quite won the batting title.  Should he spend time in Triple A?  The analogy seems apt to me, as Wie is one of the top few women players in the world.  That is why I believe she wastes her time playing the amateur events.   Win, lose or draw she gains nothing from them.

The world no longer expects Wie to fall on her face in pro events.  Exactly the opposite.  Many say she should WIN on the LPGA now.  If she doesnīt, sheīs a failure, her whole life, family and approach put under the microscope.   Isnīt that kind of your "inspiration" behind this thread?

No one expects her to win on the menīs tour yet, but the world watches her every move.  If she shot a pair of 80īs in the PGA events, people would be no more interested in her than they are in Suzy Whaley.  We are having this discussion because a 15 year old girl has twice beaten nearly half the PGA field in tour events -- thrown up a barrage of birdies in the process -- and made it to the final eight of a major USGA menīs event.

Whatever Pressel or Park might think about Wie ducking them, you could say itīs the other way around.  Presssel and Park donīt put their games on the line against the top women and men players in the world like Wie does.  They donīt try to qualify for the APL, they donīt play PGA tournaments, they donīt go up against the top LPGA players more than a few times if that.  No other woman does, amateur or pro.  Wie has chosen the most ambitious, difficult path of any woman in history.  Where it ends up, who knows, but the journey should be fascinating.  

[George Pazin]

That is one terrific post, Jim, it almost makes me regret all the sarcasm I posted on this thread.

Almost.

[Matt_Ward]

For all those ready to coronate Wie lovers:

Guys, you should handle professional boxing matches -- because it's the best way to dodge people in order to protect your status.

Why is it sooooooooo difficult for all the Wie apologists to simply admit what is clearly present -- The Wie camp fully knows that playing amateur events will not increase her stature because being the overwhelming favorite is completely different from entering events where the "age excuse" is always available in the event you don't do as well as planned.

That's very smart marketing ...

John C:

Glad you are already calling Wie "great" -- geeze John -- how many titles has she claimed to date? I mean talk about getting ahead of ourselves.

John -- send your credentials to be Wie's PR person. The simple fact is you play dodge ball with the statement I
made -- Wie as overwhelming favorite has yet to win. She proves she can contend -- how bout the winning aspect? I mean if she can bag the Women's Pub Links at 13 why not a bit more hardware with the Women's Amateur?

Oh, I forgot -- when one cannot answer the question you then get thise mumbo jumbo about people not telling Wie what to do -- yada, yada, yada.

John -- I'll clue you in -- great players can dial in on any course because they have the capacity / range to do it.

Hey Craig:

Get real -- Wie has shown plenty of potential -- why is it so much of a bash when people like me simply ask why winning the Women's Amateur is soooooooooo beyond her time and effort?

Another thing -- don't lump sportswriters into trite stereotypes. I like Wie and she clearly has vast potential -- but what prevents her from playing in such "easy events" is a very clear marketing strategy. Craig -- take off the dark glasses and see the world from what it is. Hats off to IMG and her dad for the uncanny sense in positioning her for top dollars when she turns pro.

I understand what they are doing -- I reserve the right to disagree with the strategy while still celebrating the vast potential Wie possesses. I would just like to her thoroughly dominate an event when the heavy load of pre-tourney favorite is squarely on her shoulders. Nothing more -- nothing less.

[CHrisB]

I understand what they are doing -- I reserve the right to disagree with the strategy while still celebrating the vast potential Wie possesses. I would just like to her thoroughly dominate an event when the heavy load of pre-tourney favorite is squarely on her shoulders. Nothing more -- nothing less.

Matt Ward,

I'll take a different slant than the others and ask you to pretend that you are Michelle Wie's handler. What events would you enter her in and what goals would you set for her?

If you had her enter the U.S. Women's Amateur, what would be your evaluation and strategy be if she (a) dominated the event, or (b) lost early?

I'm particularly interested in why you consider dominating on a lower level essential for her long-term success. (I'll be interested if you can answer this without mentioning Tiger Woods--I consider him to be a freak and not someone that makes much sense to model.)

[Craig Sweet]

No Matt, I WILL lump sportswriters into a "trite" stereotype because they constantly show their ignorance for the job, and the sports they cover. How often did we hear criticism of John Elway..."is he worthy of the Hall of Fame talk"...until he won a Super Bowl? As if winning a singular event bestows greatness on someone and a lifetime of acheivement doesn't?

Getting back to Wie, so what if she doesn't play the Womens Am or a bunch of junior tourneys? What has she missed? Oh, let me see, she hasn't "bagged" some hardware. Whoopie!  Here's a 15 year old girl that has traveled the world, put her game AND her reputation on the line agains MEN and WOMEN older than her and better than her, and has more than held her own. In the meantime, she has become a pretty damn good golfer and her game is much improved since earlier this spring. And guess what Matt, she loses EVERYTIME she tee's it up in a tournament. She doesn't bag any hardware, but is she ducking these events? NO!! And yoou know, and I know, that one of these days Wie will start to win these events and I'd be willing to bet its sooner rather than later.

Like George said, do you think she's losing any sleep worring about losing to Morgan Pressel or some hot shot college amateur? I doubt it.

[Brent Hutto]

Matt,

See if you can work "apologist" in there a few more times. It's really getting your point across. The "soooooooo" works better verbally than in writing (and it works best on the playground in middle school).

As for what is "clearly present", all I see is one guy asserting that he knows exactly what's going on in the minds of a bunch of people he's never been in the same county with. Repeating something that you made up doesn't make it any more convincing, whether we're talking about reading the mind of a teenager or arguing some point or another about golf course architecture.

Finally, it is true that Michelle Wie possesses "vast potential" for future success but the part that you're leaving out is her vast accomplishments that have already happened. And somehow I think if she won the boy's and girl's amateur championship and the women's amateur in the same year you'd find some way to point out that it means nothing since she already has professional experience.

[Chris Kane]

Matt, avoiding tournaments like the US Amateur because a poor result might damage her marketing value (sounds quite plausible to me) is a smart thing to do, especially if the reports are true and she's turning professional soon.

She'll have an entire career where she goes into a big event as the favourite and is expected to win.  Why does she need to do it now, and potentially jeopardise the big cheque from Nike?

Michelle Wie is playing golf for herself, not to satisfy people like you.

[Scott Coan]

Matt,

Lets review M Wie's past few months while she has be avoiding these tough amateur events:

LPGA Championship - T2
US Womens Open   - T13
Womens British Open - T3 (beat Annika)
Evian Masters          - T2 (beat Annika)

Think about that for a minute.  These are MAJOR WOMENS PROFESSIONAL TOURNAMENTS and she is on the cusp of WINNING THEM!!!!!!

To even contemplate that she is avoiding playing against her amateur peers to enhance marketing $$ is just plain silly.

[Matt_Ward]

Chris B:

There's no doubt The Wie marketing strategy is one that is looking to make vast $$ when she turns pro. As a golf observer I am also looking at this beyond the dollars -- something IMG, her dad and others can't move beyond.

I'd like Wie to win one event -- the Women's Amateur would have been a good start and thoroughly disprove she can't handle the heat as the top dog who is expected to win.

I love all these silly comments that say Wie is beyond such events. That's a very convenient dodge ball game because the person makign such a claim knows full well that entering match play is never a sure fire situation.

You say don't mention Tiger and I know why you said that -- however -- Tiger conquered each world he has played. Think of how demanding winning the Junior three time in a row and ditto the Men's Amateur was and will likely be never duplicated. Tiger showed he can handle winning even when the spotlight was on him as the overwhelming favorite. I'd like Wie to demonstrate the same thing stripped of the "I'm just 15" excuse that her PR team is ready to use whenever she plays poorly.

Wie is the female equivalent of Tiger and likely given the lack of depth in the women's game to the men's it's clear Wie and her handlers have chosen a different course of action. So be it. I don't see how playing in those events to date have furthered her ability to close out events with wins.

Golf's history is loaded with plenty of people who have shown vast potential -- watching someone possessed of "closing out talent" is quite another thing.

What I see happening is a skillful manipulating of Wie's presence (see the pressure McDonald's put on the LPGA for her to play in the LPGA Championship) who will do anything to have this gal play in their events.

Chris -- I see the positioning of The Wie team as a very smart move and one that's hard to undercut because of the dollars they will be able to secure the minute Wie says amateur golf is over for good. They are cutting out any situations that potentially could cause Michelle short term dollar disadvantages. I can see their motivations quite clearly but still reserve the right to disagree.

If she did play in the Women's Amateur I would make it clear that Michelle is ready to handle the heat as the tournament favorite -- that she isn't ducking those events that she clearly has the overwhelming edge -- at least on paper. Great Champions don't duck competitions of any kind -- they seek them out.

If she lost in the event I would recommend that she state the advantage in learning what those type of situations will mean for her in the long run. In my mind -- Wie would show she's not afraid to put it on the line -- not hide behind her age when it's convenient -- that she understands the value of winning and is not entered into events simply to run and hide from the aura she creates and which others seek to topple.

Brent:

Forgive me dad -- but I already have one father. I don't need your silly "let me tell you what you should say" lectures. Get off the high and mighty horse partner and see the issues at hand instead of the BS putdown comments.

I am simply analyzing why The Wie team skillfully avoids playing in events that even the greatest of players have played in their time (e.g. Tiger, Nicklaus, Carner, etc, etc). You missed my point because you are focused on me personally instead of the arguments raised. Being the overwhelming favorite is a different tag than simply blending into the mixture of others. That was Tiger's point essentially when he opined on this matter a short time ago.

Why don't you just admit the obvious -- The Wie team doesn't want to see their cash cow potentially get beat by some 4 foot 10 inch young and upcoming star in Atlanta.

The "I'm 15" excuse book works when playing against the men or LPGA stars -- but you don't have it when you lose when you are supposed to win. End of story.

Chris K:

Excuse me partner -- but there are people on this site who make it a cottage industry to bash various architects but no one says boo when they do. Now -- when I raise some issues the debate gets turned around and I become the focus because I don't have a sever case of Michelle Wie-itis.
Chris -- with all due respect -- send in your resume to the Bush White House -- that's what they need given the Rove fiasco.

[Chris Kane]

Matt, if you were Michelle Wie, would you do any different?  

[John_Conley]

John C:

Glad you are already calling Wie "great" --

John -- send your credentials to be Wie's PR person. The simple fact is you play dodge ball with the statement I
made -- Wie as overwhelming favorite has yet to win. She proves she can contend -- how bout the winning aspect? I mean if she can bag the Women's Pub Links at 13 why not a bit more hardware with the Women's Amateur?

Oh, I forgot -- when one cannot answer the question you then get thise mumbo jumbo about people not telling Wie what to do -- yada, yada, yada.

John -- I'll clue you in -- great players can dial in on any course because they have the capacity / range to do it.

Matt:

Pay attention
I'll go slow
You neglect to mention
She can always go low

(great players can dial in on any course because they have the capacity / range to do it.)  Yeah, she's having a world of trouble adjusting to the different setups she sees.  Top level male amateur events, the PGA Tour, professional ladies events in France and North America, all four Majors on two continents... yeah, she can't cope.

Poor Jersey Matt
He's made a mistake
If Michelle Wie isn't
At 15 you can't be great

Dodge the question, Matt?  No.  I addressed it head on.  It might not have been the answer you wanted.  I told you that you'll be out of things to say when she does win.  Your worn argument will be obsolete.

Pan WAAAAYYY down the Futures Tour money list and you'll see Leigh Ann Hardin.  This illustrates that every year there are junior golfers of note and it does not translate to professional success.  Should Jenny Chousiriporn have skipped the U.S. Open because she hadn't run the table in amateur and college golf?  (Refresher, Grace Park was top dog back then.)  Or was her playoff loss to Se Ri Pak a worthy endeavor?  

Pressel is most likely the real deal.  In-Bee?  I don't know if she is the next Birdie Kim or the next Aree Song.  Or is she the next Mi Hyun Kim?  Who cares?  The point is that Michelle Wie can do things NO other female golfer can do.  I don't care if she ever beats anyone else, that's a lot.

Robert Smith is my favorite bowler.  Walter Ray and Norm Duke are "better" the way you define it.  So what.  I'm paying to see Smith.  

[CHrisB]

Matt Ward,

I appreciate the response and you make a strong argument. As I understand your contention, if Michelle Wie plays more against lesser competition, then she should be able to dominate that competition and groove the skill of closing out and winning tournaments. She could then use that experience to her benefit when she competes against better competition (LPGA, PGA), and it will help her win more in the long run.

I'm just having a hard time believing that that's the way it would work. I don't understand how winning amateur match play tournaments against inferior competition translates into winning stroke play tournaments against the best players in the world. I suppose the argument is that she'd learn how to execute under the pressure of whatever situation she's in, but I don't see it.

If you are training to beat the best, you can either (i) practice beating inferior competition and hope the "winning skill" carries over against the best, or (ii) you can play the best over and over until you figure out a way to beat them.

An analogy (from someone who lives in Austin) is the University of Texas football team--they can sure beat Tulane and my alma mater Rice every year, but it ain't helping them beat Oklahoma... IMO they'll just have to keep playing Oklahoma until they can figure out how to beat them...

BTW I think her age of 15 is very important in what strategy is best for her--I just don't feel comfortable heaping a bunch of pressure on a 15-year-old who will be competing professionally for the next 30+ years. Why heap it on her now and risk burnout? It seems to make more sense to keep putting her in situations where she has little to lose, and everything to gain. Then she can rack up great accomplishments and clear all sorts of mental hurdles with relatively little pressure. She might even sneak a few wins in, which will really help later when the expectations start to mount.

I just don't see the downside of her current strategy as you seem to.

[Voytek Wilczak]

Wie does not play in Women's Am because hardly anybody in this country cares about Women's Am and there is no money in it. Participating in it, as Matt says, does not further her financial goals and could conceivably hurt them. Winning it is absolutely inconsequential.

But here is where my opinion differs from Matt's - I think it's great that she does not play Women's Am. It's a waste of her time. She should play Men's Am instead and kick a few butts. At least she would be working towards her Masters goal.

[Doug Siebert]

Let's putt Matt Ward in a time machine, punch in "1953", and watch him trash Ben Hogan for dodging the pressure by not trying for a grand slam.  Oh, scheduling problems you say...

[John_Conley]

Aim Low![/b]

Just doesn't have the same ring as JUST DO IT.

[Craig Sweet]

It seems like it was just yesterday that someone was boasting that Michelle Wie would have her head handed to her at the Public Links by those long hitting NCAA men that were competing. If I recalled she made it to the final 8...not bad for a 15 year old girl playing agaisnt long hitting NCAA studs.

Ah, but that wasn't good enough for Matt Ward and other Wie bashers. Now they want her to play against amateur women so they can basher some more if she loses. Nice...cake and eat it too, all in one challenge.

[John_Conley]

Craig, great point.

Build people up only to try to knock them down.

Wie is easy to ignore.  How hard is it to NOT WATCH women's golf?  Most people have done that their whole life.

Vostinak will fault others for paying attention to her and calls it idolatry, then fails to recant anything he said when she did what he said couldn't be done (compete at the APL).

Now Ward chooses to bash her (lack of) accomplishments, ignoring the fact that no other 15 year old has ever accomplished more.  (Sorry Matt, Aree winning one junior is no more impressive than Michelle winning one women's APL.)

Of course, Matt COULD ignore her.  But no, he seems to want to knock her down a peg.

Guess what Matt?  You said she might lose at the Am.  YOU'RE RIGHT.

[Jeff Shelman]

Craig Sweet,

I don't give a damn what Michelle Wie does, but as a sportswriter I really appreciate the broad brush you're painting all of us with.

That's right. We're all idiots. We're all assholes. We all don't know a damn thing about anything.

I think Matt makes some good points. As someone who covers a lot of college basketball, I'm going to make an analogy. Michelle Wie is a top 10 basketball program trying to put together a schedule. Playing LPGA events is like playing other ranked teams: If you win, great. If not, no one really thinks less of you. Playing in the women's am is like playing six games against Gonzaga, Creighton, Kent State, Old Dominion, St. Joseph's and Wisconsin-Milwaukee. People who know basketball realize that all of those teams are pretty good and it is certainly possible all of them could beat a ranked team. But the general public doesn't know that. If a ranked team would lose to any of them, they would think the ranked team isn't any good.

For our SEC football guys, let's put it like this: A year ago, did your school want any part of Boise State? Or Louisville? Wie is USC or Oklahoma. Morgan Pressel is Boise State. And losing to Boise State costs the big-name programs money.

From my perspective, Wie is "playing up" and isn't in the position where she has to win. If she does, great. If not, it's no big deal. She is the "it girl" of golf right now when she might not be even the best teenager in the sport. Give her and her family credit because everybody knows who Wie is while a very small percentage of the population knows who Paula Craemer is.

I think Wie is an unbelievable talent and has an amazing amount of potential. I'm not convinced, however, that she is the only teenager who can be described in that way. I think there is certainly a significant amount of image creation going on here. I think she is playing in events where she has the most gain and the least to lose. I understand why it's happening.

[Craig Sweet]

Jeff Shelman, I disagree with your basketball analogy.

Michelle Wie is the Gonzaga of 8 years ago, building a program, looking for games against the top 10 schools. You get better, you become a top 10 school by playing the big boys, losing to the big boys, but learning and growing as you lose. You know what your goal is. Its to be a top 10 school. You shed the Division II schools and the Central Washington State's from your schedule, though you could whip up on them and have 20 win seasons,and you start to schedule the 3 or 4 games a year against the like of Stanford and Michigan.

When your goal is top 10 it does you no good to play the DII schools. It isn't good for your "image" when recruiting talent to explain why you still play DII schools when that recruit could go play for Washington and be playing Pac. 10 2 nights a week.

Wie's goal is ambitious and is Top 10 on both tours, so why play against 12 and 14 year olds? Why play, when your travel is long and expensive, against lesser talent?

[Brent Hutto]

I know next to nothing about boxing but Matt seems to be implying by his analogy that Michael Spinks was dodging the other fighters in his weight class when he beat Larry Holmes for the Heavyweight title.

By Matt's reasoning Spinks was so afraid of the other light heavyweights that he chickened out on his true competitors and took on Holmes. After all, if he had lost his light heavyweight crown in a rematch with Eddie Davis or some other nobody, right?

[corey miller]

I think Matt has already given a reason for why Michelle is dodging the wrong way-marketing.  She is worth less to IMG,NIKE if she loses.  You may not agree but it is a good guess.  So in this instance, it would be reasonable to "dodge up" in the boxing analogy.

I would also question the Bob Feller deal.  We can name more people that were ruined by reaching the majors too early and never developed.

 Golf is pretty similar to baseball as one needs a skill set but it is still an incredibly mental game.  Clearly, in my mind one would benefit by playing better competition in basketball or hockey or tennis.  Not sure about golf.

I played major college baseball after having been a fairly highly recruited high school player.  During the high school summers,when I was physically able, I played with the best competition possible.  This was older college players and former minor leaguers, very few high school kids.  Rather than batting 3rd and playing SS, I was batting 1,2,8,9 and playing outfield. Sure I faced some incredible pitchers, but I did not have too many game winning hits.  

It is my belief that I would have been better off dominating a lower level with my peers(clearly dominate means different things in different sports).  I never developed the proper attitude to best use my skills.  That proper attitude is developed through winning and succeeding.  It gives one a mental resevoir of succeses to fall back on in difficult times and situations.

I believe the perception of Tiger being invincible at one time, both in his mind and his opponents was his record of incredible amatuer success.

I hope the Wie family plan is not part of a marketing plan.  We can't fault them for doing what they think is best for their daughter.

[Steve Lang]

 

Vacationing just below the 45th parallel in michigan.. I have to wonder what does any of this or other OT threads have to do with GCA???

Clearly GCA.COM needs to step up and separate Discussion Group OT threads or weed them out..

Like it or not at least Michelle Wie's path is clearly her own..

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()