"...best hole I've seen"

[james soper]

"In the States, I think Cypress Point is awesome. Its subtleties are amazing. The 15th hole is probably the best hole I've seen".- Jim Engh(Golf Connoisseur-Spring 2005).

"The 13th at Pine Valley is the hole most people remember: it's considered to be an example of the best golf architecture can offer. Your options are said to be never-ending: playing safe to the right is popular but the John Daly in us will always make us think we can carry the danger and hit the green in two".- Ed Seay(Kingdom-Issue Three)

[Paul_Turner]

I haven't played it, but what are the subtleties of the 15th at Cypress?

[Mike_Cirba]

a shank could either hit a seal, a porpoise, or a whale.

[THuckaby2]

I haven't played it, but what are the subtleties of the 15th at Cypress?

1.  The green has several different sections, each of which exacts a different penalty for the miss.

2. Putts look easy but aren't; that is, the contours are quite subtle.

3.  The green is deeper than it looks and club selection is tougher than one might think.

4.  The wind swirls due to the surrounding trees and other factors - did I mention club selection is difficult?

That's enough for now.  Methinks Mr. Engh isn't far off in his statement.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

You forgot to mention the seals, porpoises, and whales.  

Of course, I'm teasing, but although the hole has more going on then is immediately apparent, it probably is not quite as subtle as let's say, 12 at ANGC.  

[Dan Herrmann]

I'll take #2 at Pine Valley.

I've actually driven up there and looked at #2 through the gates by the railroad tracks.  (thankfully, I didn't drive all the way from Chester County, PA just for this!)

[THuckaby2]

Tom,

You forgot to mention the seals, porpoises, and whales.  

Of course, I'm teasing, but although the hole has more going on then is immediately apparent, it probably is not quite as subtle as let's say, 12 at ANGC.  

An additional subtlety is that one could also hit a shark or sea lion if one got lucky enough.

But understood re the difference from 12 Augusta.  I do believe it's just closer than most would think, in this context, that's all.  Those who call it a simple wedge shot are the ones who tend to make fives.

 

[Tony_Chapman]

"In the States, I think Cypress Point is awesome. Its subtleties are amazing. The 15th hole is probably the best hole I've seen".- Jim Engh(Golf Connoisseur-Spring 2005).

Huck and Mike - I'm reading the quote a bit different. I believe Mr. Engh thinks that CP -- as a whole -- has amazing subtleties. He must feel the 15th is the best hole on the golf course.

Just my .02!!

[THuckaby2]

Tony - I read it that way also.  He's not saying 15 is amazing because of its subtleties... The hole itself is amazing, the course as a whole has the subtleties.  I just took the ball and ran with it, answering Paul's question... Because I do think 15 has way more to it than meets the eye, and as you know, a lot meets the eye as it is!

 

[JeffTodd]

I'll take #2 at Pine Valley.

I've actually driven up there and looked at #2 through the gates by the railroad tracks.  (thankfully, I didn't drive all the way from Chester County, PA just for this!)

Wow, I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one who has done that.

[DMoriarty]

Look, I like the 15th hole at Cypress, but can anyone here honestly say that it is the best hole they have ever seen?  Come on.   I think we have to give Mr. Engh the benefit of the doubt here and assume that he either mispoke or was misquoted, and that he actually meant CPC 16.  

[Brian_Gracely]

If "best hole I've seen" can be loosely translated as "hole I'd be A-OK with playing for the rest of my life, or they can bury my ashes there", then I'd be put my name on the list with Mr.Engh with regard to #15 at CPC.  

Is #16 better, no.  One-dimensional hole, that becomes less interesting as you get older and are unable to make the carry.

Is #9 better, no (but really close).  The combination of #8 and #9 is an incredible set of Par4s.  But the risk-reward of #9 would eventually become a drive & pitch as you get older.

But the setting, challenge and peacefulness of #15 is unmatched.  You could spend an hour on the hole, and maybe only hit two tee-shots, and it would be a great hour spent.  It tests your accuracy, your short-game, your putting, your ability to concentrate despite the setting, and your ability to be one with nature and appreciate that certain places in the world are perfect.  

[JESII]

#11 Shinnecock
#13 Royal County Down or #5 Merion
#15 Pine Valley

One for each par.

The best of these - #15 at PVGC.

[Gene Greco]

No, I tend to agree with Mr. Moriarity.

I believe Engh meant #16 at CP.

It is not one-dimensional. One doesn't need to carry the entire length but may choose the shorter route with an easy pitch for the approach and par putt.

It is the best hole I've seen and nothing else approaches its majestic awesomeness and beauty.  

Sandbox, one may spend an hour on the 15th tee and only hit two balls but my guess is the other 59 minutes is spent looking at 16.

[Brian_Gracely]

Gene,

From the pictures, you appear to be a good sized, healthy guy.  How many times have you walked through the Cypress trees between #15 and #16 and seriously contemplated hitting a lay-up?

I agree that #16 is an awesome sight and a serious challenge of skill (strength & accuracy), but don't give me that talk about lay-up being a serious strategic consideration.  Hell, even Marion Hollis wouldn't take that approach.

[George Pazin]

Arnie said he'd do it if he were leading a tournament by 2 in the final round....

Let's face it - the 16th is a special case. Most who play it are never going to play it again, or will only play it a few times, and the reward is worth the risk. Its strategic elements really only shine if there is something significant at stake, but that's not the hole's fault, or the architect's.

15 seems like a wonderful hole, but I can't imagine putting it high on my list. I only hope someone can show me its merits in person someday....

[Brian_Gracely]

Its strategic elements really only shine if there is something significant at stake, but that's not the hole's fault, or the architect's.

Huh??  It's only a non one-dimensional hole if something important is at stake?  So it's a great hole if we're playing for the US Open, but not if we're playing for a beer?  Or it's only strategic if we're playing in the US Open?  

[George Pazin]

I suppose that's one way of looking at it.

Another would be that it is the ultimate temptation hole, and that pretty much everyone falls victim to its charms.

[Brian_Gracely]

George,

If that's really the case, that #16 is just a siren on the rocks, then why did Marion Hollis insist on it being a Par3?  Why not just have Dr.M build a back tee and make it a picturesque Par4 around the cove?  

[George Pazin]

That just makes the choice more obvious. Maybe Mac preferred subtlety....

[Ian Andrew]

Even the redan's options don't thrill me as much as Foxy at Dornoch. There are so many ways to try approach and play the hole, both from the tee and the approach. The joy is that none are perfect, and the player must make a great approach.

The 13th at PV is another fine example of options, but I can't see 15 or 16 at Cypress. I've played both and they are truly spectacular. 15th is simply a single shot hole of sublime beauty. The 16th offers options, until the wind is strong, then there is only one prudent play. Stunning hole yes, best hole I've seen, I don't think so.

[Scratch_Nathan]

Redanman -

That's eight letters, pards.

SN

[paul cowley]

I'd say the old Seaside #7 [colt and allison] prior to the recent renovation at the Sea Island resort.

[Michael Dugger]

16th at Bandon Dunes

[Neil Regan]

I'd say the old Seaside #7 [colt and allison] prior to the recent renovation at the Sea Island resort.

Paul,

  I played that hole over 20 years. I can't count the balls I put in the marsh. Everybody who played it looked forward to it, tried different angles, and talked about it later. I still have a ball from almost a 2 there one day (with a MacGregor Muirfield 2-iron after a good long drive.) The hole was very long and gave you every reason to carry as much of the marsh as possible. The more your tee shot went right for less carry, the more blocked you were by the what, 10 foot?, high fairway bunker, in addition to having a much longer shot to a small green on a mound behind a deep false-front bunker.
  Now the tee shot is the same, but the new green has been brought 45 yards closer and tripled in size (and is all too often maintained resort-soft.) Now there is not only little if any reason to risk a big carry, it might actually be smarter to play safe right with less than a wood for a full 9-iron or wedge approach instead of a half-wedge. And the fairway bunker no longer intimidates anyone.
  It was a famous hole, and rightly so. My heart aches to see it now.

  But you knew that already.