Architect for Ross Renovation?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Perhaps you should define those terms for him first before asking questions and then getting into a long discussion over what's meant by those terms or who said what to whom and when.  

[Paul Richards]

>Architect for Ross Renovation?

call Ron Prichard

[T_MacWood]

TE
Normally a renovation is a modernization, which often includes remodeling or redesign.

Restoration is to restore something to a prior state.

[mike_malone]

 When I play there today with Tom I'll just do a restoration for them on a napkin.

[tomgoutman]

Tom MacWood:
What I have in mind is restoration. (My thread should have been titled "restoration" instead of "renovation".) But I don't run the club. I do think there are many quality holes at Torresdale that would be made even stronger with tree removal and bunker restoration. I don't know that it needs much more than that, but I am hardly either a golf architect or a Ross expert. Comparing the present layout with that which existed in the 1930's (by way of aerial photos), it is clear that much of the original course is still there, just buried beneath hundreds of trees that were planted in the 1950's. Apart from some unfortunate fairway bunker removals or relocations (out of the fairway), the only changes have been at number 8 (green moved to other side of creek, making it IMHO a much stronger risk-reward par four), number 9 (green rebuilt--to prior specs), number 11 (green raised to prevent flooding from run-off of adjacent creek), number 13 (hole lengthened by moving green back), number 17 (changed from a par 4 to a par 3 because of state-mandated road widening) and 18 (relocation of tee box as a result of changes to 17). There are some other things that I would do (if I ruled the world) such as cart path removal, but I think the main thrust of restoration would involve trees and bunkers and restoring the strategy and shot value that is so important for a short course like Torresdale. Since the course is today so close to its original design, shouldn't a Master Plan emphasize preservation and restoration? Thanks.
Tom G.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I would also recommend that you look at Mountain Ridge, Plainfield and Essex County in NJ, along with the courses Tom Paul and others here mentioned.

As far as the 8th hole, my understanding from the TF History book written by Dr. James Martin is that Ross came back and gave the members a choice whether the green should be on the near or far side of the creek.

Masochists that they were, the members decided to create a very tough hole.  

I agree that TF is clearly worth preserving and enhancing through most of the steps you've outlined.  It could be much improved through tree removal and enhancement of original features!

[TEPaul]

"TE
Normally a renovation is a modernization, which often includes remodeling or redesign."

Tom:

Is that right? "renovate"---To make new or as if new again; repair.

Do you think it makes a difference what it's called? At GMGC we took a couple of years with Gil Hanse to plan the restoration of the course, calling it a restoration. The membership at first didn't like the sound of the word "restoration" so we decided to call it "an improvement" without changing the original restoration plan because of the term change. But perhaps you think the term change means we somehow altered the original plan to remodel or redesign the golf course. Do you?

[TEPaul]

tomgoutman;

I like your gist and ideas. Torresdale Frankford has its own uniqueness, in my opinion, and has had as long as I've been around here. I love that course because of its uniqueness. Nilon and I won the Kerwin Cup there about ten years ago. There're some really good holes there for a variety of reasons--eg #1!, #2, #3, #4, #5!! (very multi-optional), #7, #8!, #9, #11!, #14!!!, #15 (multi-optional off the tee), #18. I think the real strength of the course is its greens and the speeds you run. Don't change those greens except to restore their sizes. Removing about half the trees to show the rest better would be great. The one hole I would definitely keep the tree corridor on is #15---eg that tree corridor is the only strategic risk to good players who try to drive it real close to that green. Plus they're needed as a buffer for safety on both holes on its sides, particularly #13. I don't know what to say about the tree-lining on #3 except to tell you that as a tournament player there that high tee looking out across the tops of those trees on either side always created a pretty special intensity. In that way that hole is pretty unique to me that way. Tree removal at Torresdale needs some very careful and special consideration hole to hole, in my opinion, for a whole variety of reasons.

Even if they're of different eras perhaps, I've always put Ross's Torresdale and his LuLu in sort of the same boat---courses that are almost "in the city", small, tight, cozy, tricky and unique because of all that. I'm just delighted they're both surviving and being given the restoration consideration that they are. It's great to see.

[T_MacWood]

"Since the course is today so close to its original design, shouldn't a Master Plan emphasize preservation and restoration?"

Tom G.
Thanks for the info. To be honest I really don't have the knowledge to say. But just based upon what you've shared, it seems reasonable to me.

From what little I know of T-F, the course has a pretty interesting architectural history. A real old nine that evolved over the years, eventually converted into a new 18 by Ross. Are there any vestiges of the old nine that Ross kept? Is the date of 1930 correct for Ross's work?

I don't believe I've seen any old pictures to date, but if I find any of T-F I'll forward them on to you.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

The T/F course is all Ross (with minor Gordon revisions as noted above), built around 1918 if memory serves.  

The original Willie Campbell 9 was on a different site.  The attribution in Cornish/Whitten is wrong, and the club historian has notified them of that fact.

Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't Willie either...that was incorrect.  It was a local pro by the name of James Campbell.

I have their history somewhere in a box at home.  When the Torresdale and Frankford clubs merged, they found a new site and enlisted Ross, who built them a new course.

[mike_malone]

 TEPaul,
    Don't worry! I have it all under control. Trees need to come out on the left side of #3 as one tries to approach the green. That green complex is awesome. Let people try to get there from the rough instead of punching out to the fairway.

  You are probably right about #15. But, as one gets closer to the green more width is needed to bring out the bunkers that front the green. Now, going staight at it is all that is available.

[T_MacWood]

Mike
I was off on both counts...I got the 1930 date from 'Discovering DR'.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I'm not sure how that information failed to get to the usual authorities.

Back about 10 or so years ago I had some correspondence with the club historian at the time, a Dr. James Martin, who wrote a small softcover book about the history of the club based on his research.  It was quite definitive.  

I'm sure I still have it somewhere, but my golf stuff is getting like George Bahto's basement!  

[TEPaul]

Mayday:

As usual, I don't agree with you. On a few holes on some courses there's nothing wrong with virtually demanding strategically that the player hit the fairway---and #3 and #15 would seem to be ideal for that for a lot of reasons. Don't you remember the premium Flynn put on accuracy first?? What are you doing this Friday night? Do you want to have dinner on the inside of a booth with Wayne and I at a nice diner?

[mike_malone]

 TEPaul,

   On #3 --Why would anyone cover up that recovery approach from the left? Why bother designing bunkers, hills and undulating greens, when you can only approach from the center of the fairway?

   Indeed , this hole (as designed and built) put a premium on accuracy. It now puts a penalty on the lack of it.

[TEPaul]

"Mike
I was off on both counts...I got the 1930 date from 'Discovering DR'."

Tom MacW:

Be careful where you do your research.

For whatever reason, Brad Klein and his USGA award winning book on Ross and his career was notably light on Ross's Philadelphia courses and their histories and architectural evolutions. Perhaps he put it off to write another book on that specific subject alone such as how Aronimink evolved into a terrible bunker mistake by creating the bunkers from Ross's own drawings.

Finegan's "Centennial" probably has more comprehensive information on the histories of Ross's Philly courses. Those Finegan histories can be found on the GAP website. Other than that one pretty much needs to do some local research at the clubs and with local people and old periodicals around here and such.

[TEPaul]

"Why bother designing bunkers, hills and undulating greens, when you can only approach from the center of the fairway?"

No, Mayday, you can pretty much successfully approach that green from the extreme right and left sides of that fairway too. Same on #15. Holes like those two I'd pretty much call "distance strategic'---in other words the deal on those two is you pretty much just want to hit whatever club you choose from the tee as straight and accurate as possible. Nothing at all wrong with demanding that strategically a couple of times a round. One might even get giddy about it and call it something off-the-wall like VARIETY!  

[mike_malone]

 I can do it by removing only 20 trees to start, none a safety issue, all near the greens, and the removal of each reveals the exquisite green complexes that already exist.

      T/F does not really need restoration. It is a jewel that just needs shining. Let's not scare the membership there  with thoughts of some major overhaul.

   TEPaul

    I know you are kidding me ; aren't you? Is it true you are writing a book on Flynn? Isn't he the guy who loved the recovery shot? When one is left on #3 at T/F ,in the rough, there is no recovery shot --only a punchout. The fantastic bunkering , the hill, and the sloping green are covered up by the trees. "VARIETY" ? If my father offered to beat me with the whip or the chain I would not consider it variety.

  There are many holes on this course that require precise driving. The trouble "at the green" is a better way to punish you than the tree in the landing area or in your line of flight.

[TEPaul]

"If my father offered to beat me with the whip or the chain I would not consider it variety."

Well, Mayday, I guess that should depend on whether your father beat you with a whip and then a chain most of the time, wouldn't it? If, on the other hand he beat you with a ruler or brass knuckles most every day you should probably consider a whip or a chain some wonderful variety. Hit your recovery shot from the left trees through the trees. Didn't anyone ever tell you they're 90% air anyway? Just think how ecstatic you'd be if you pulled it off. Sure Flynn advocated the daring recovery shot but I don't remember him saying there should never be trees around when one tried it.