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JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« on: December 03, 2002, 10:46:34 PM »
http://sports.espn.go.com/golf/story?id=1470821

A sign that the Apocalypse is upon us?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Rich Goodale (Guest)

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2002, 11:01:20 PM »
Here's a link to the original story.

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/golf/story/0,10069,853440,00.html

They apparently based the "renovation" on a picture of Billy Casper in the bunker in the 1960's...........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andrew Roberts

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2002, 11:23:48 PM »
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(



What the Hell?


Why are they adding length to the Old Course, in hopes of making it harder, but change around maybe the most penal bunker in all of championship golf.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andrew Roberts

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 11:32:00 PM »
pros were complaining because they could not advance the ball forward. :'(
Isn't that the point of the road bunker?
Hazards like that one help determine a champion.  Tiger missed the bunker all 4 days in 2000.  This enabled him to probably make no more than 6, which he did?
Will this hole be great anymore or will it turn in to above average.  
You know I've only seen this hole on tv.  I would like to hear the greats of this sight talk about this one?
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2002, 02:27:46 AM »
Its funny that the local Courier seems to agree to the changes , says they have just put it back to the way it was 25 years ago , and the recontouring will trap more shots than before .

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/febcourierrede/NewsStory.cfm?StoryID=29469&Today=041202
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2002, 05:48:48 AM »
:'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2002, 07:45:08 AM »
From the article;

"It has been replaced with 32 feet of gathering area to a pot bunker set four feet back from its original greenside setting. The crest has been lowered and the face reduced by some two feet. It is apparently a reconstruction from a photograph of Billy Casper in it in the 1960s. But what has materialised bears little resemblance to anything that any senior citizen can recall."

Damn...why does that sound familiar??  ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2002, 07:51:42 AM »
"But what has materialised bears little resemblance to anything that any senior citizen can recall."

What exactly is the author trying to imply here?  That statement could really be interpreted two ways! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2002, 08:04:08 AM »
I wasn't aware that Rees Jones redesigned in Europe as well... ;)  ....this is sad  :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

redanman

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2002, 08:09:06 AM »
Earlier, I commented to the effect of the Ebola Virus of Golf on another thread, and here it is.

 :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2002, 08:13:33 AM »
Jeff Brauer;

Perhaps I'm not getting it.  What "two ways" do you see here?

It seems to me that the author is implying that whoever decided to castrate the road hole bunker was using a picture from the 1960s, but none of the old-timers in town recall the bunker ever looking anything like the resulting work.

Matt Kardash;

In fairness, you might want to think about leaving Rees out of this.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2002, 08:24:05 AM »
I've moved the key points of the story here for easier viewing;

The most famous hazard in world golf, the Road Hole bunker, has been drastically and dramatically changed. The bunker, which used to dominate the 17th on the Old Course at St Andrews, has been moved back from the putting surface and its height reduced by around two feet, thus altering the character of the hole completely.

The 17th has always been regarded as the hardest par four in the world. Many great players in many great championships have gone into its greenside bunker, stayed in it, and had their chance of fame and fortune destroyed.

It became the most notorious bunker anywhere and the only one with such a malign reputation that the BBC installed a camera in the front wall for viewers to watch the largely unavailing attempts of the world's best players trying to get out. But almost overnight and without any apparent consultation the shape, depth and even the position of the most feared patch of sand in the game has been arbitrarily altered.

As a result, says David Malcolm, a past captain of the New Club at St Andrews, "the whole town is in uproar". He went on: "Tampering with the bunker is going too far and its loss is a tragedy. A lot of players have cursed it through the years, but a lot more will mourn its passing like a dear and familiar old friend.

"This is a bunker with a story longer than any saga and more colourful than a Hollywood epic. It has provided unparalleled entertainment for thousands of onlookers in the ringside seats behind the 17th green." As recently as the Open championship in 2000 David Duval took four to get out. Remove that threat and the 17th remains a difficult enough hole, but not the hardest in the world. Not, as Jose Maria Olazabal said yesterday, one that "you think about long before you get there".

In the 1990 Open, from the front edge of the green, the Spaniard putted into the Road Hole bunker - and then took two to get out. Despite that, he says: "If they have moved the bunker back from the putting surface and made it shallower then they are taking the personality from the hole - its character."

According to Malcolm, the repositioning will make it "very difficult, if not impossi ble, to putt into it." He added: "The old bunker was eight feet wide at its base and gathered errant shots from twice that width.

"It has been replaced with 32 feet of gathering area to a pot bunker set four feet back from its original greenside setting. The crest has been lowered and the face reduced by some two feet. It is apparently a reconstruction from a photograph of Billy Casper in it in the 1960s. But what has materialised bears little resemblance to anything that any senior citizen can recall."

The work appears to have been carried out because there were complaints after the 2000 Open that the floor of the bunker was too flat, that the sand which should have curved up to the face formed a right-angle and if the ball was too close it was impossible to advance it forwards.

Last night the R & A secretary Peter Dawson said: "I would not disagree that there are some indignant people on this subject. It is always difficult to see what a concept is like until it has actually been done. But we did not ask for these changes and it is evident that they have altered the nature of the hole."

On-course work is done by the Links Management committee which is in charge of supervising the course.

"I'm not sure that anyone likes it very much; the changes have been noted and we will be in discussion about them. We will be walking the course next week to look at many things and I'm sure this work will be reviewed," he added.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2002, 08:30:43 AM »
You're right Mike....we wouldn't want to go off on a tangent in these dire times....I have an ability to blast people at the most inapropriate times..haha
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

D. Kilfara

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2002, 08:34:15 AM »
Guys, I wouldn't fret too much about this at the moment. What has been done can be undone, can't it? It sounds as though that will be exactly what happens if the voices of protest (collectively or individually) are powerful enough. Who knows...maybe that would be a high-profile example which would discourage other clubs from making hasty "restoration" decisions of which we collectively wouldn't approve. And maybe it will lead to the establishment of some sort of permanent R&A oversight over the Links Trust to ensure that the Old Course doesn't get changed in the future.

Cheers,
Darren
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2002, 08:37:41 AM »
Darren

One would hope.

Bill
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2002, 08:42:32 AM »
Darren;

In some ways, I think that the idea that any significant change can simply be "undone" is very dangerous, slippery slope thinking.  

If those in charge of our greatest course treasures are of the mindset that they can change anything, only to "fix it" if it doesn't work right, then I think that sort of mindset only encourages more of this type of unneccessary nonsense.

I've watched other bunkers at famous courses go under the bulldozer and if you tell me that every nuance could simply be easily recreated, I don't agree at all.  Particularly when the bunker "surrounds" have been significantly altered, as seems to be the case here, simply recreating "what was" in all of it's dimensions doesn't seem to be something easily done.

Even on some of the best restorations I've seen, they almost all have some personal imprint of either the supervising architect or the construction crew.  Yes, someone could paint another likeness of the Mona Lisa, but inevitably it seems to me that the fine details and subtleties get lost.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Mike Hendren

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2002, 10:24:35 AM »
Ran,

Please delete this thread before The Emperor sees it.

Paging Dr. Katz,  please stand by.  

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Philippe_Binette

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2002, 11:14:08 AM »
How stupid could we be?

The Road Hole bunker is not a bunker, it is the soul of the game, it is history, tradition, it is St Andrews, it is golf...

Once again, as long as we are going to keep listening to unwary professionnals who only care about thier series of 3 and 4 on the card, WE ARE GOING TO RUIN GOLF... It's not my commentsd, it is Dr Mackenzie's comments.. in a book called The Spirit of St Andrews. I guess I knew what he was saying...

Let the BIG BABIES - THE PROS cry while they are playing boring courses all year long...

If they're not smart enough to avoid the Road Hole Bunker, it's THEIR PROBLEM, not the course problem.....

Let the challenge of golf survive....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Keith Williams

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2002, 11:19:57 AM »
How incredible!

Is nothing sacred?  What next?  Now is someone going to
propose moving the green and creek at the 13th at ANGC
40 yards back and then attempt to perfectly recreate
the original green setting... oh wait...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2002, 11:29:54 AM »
Does anyone have a picture of the "new" bunker?

 :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2002, 11:51:24 AM »
Paging Martha Burk,

"Dear Martha,

"We have a proposition for you. In a preamble to next April's Masters please get some of your gals from the Scottish NOW or whatever it's called to picket The Links Trust, lie down in front of the bulldozers, scream to high heaven etc. In return, we'll come and join your picketers on the road outside Magnolia Lane. Just to be clear--we won't be picketing to admit a woman to Augusta National Golf Club. We'll be picketing the travesty in golf course architecture that has occurred at Augusta National. The media, of course, won't know the difference, you'll have more bodies out there (men, even!) for photo opps, etc. A win-win, don't ya think, Martha?"

Sincerely,

GolfClubAtlas.com" *

*The foregoing is not an officially sanctioned letter of GolfClubAtlas.com
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Robert Kimball

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2002, 12:25:12 PM »
What does anyone know about this "Links Trust"?

 I would like to know who gave the go ahead on this project.  Was it due simply to griping from pros? How can this be when they only play the course maybe once a year!!??  

And it appears that the R&A are befuddled and don't know what to do??  Very fishy IMHO.  

But, certainly they would do what is right.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2002, 12:28:52 PM »
I don't understand something,

If this is a RESTORATION to what the bunker was previously,
and if they used old photos as the basis of the reconstruction,

What are you guys crying about ??

I thought you endorsed RESTORATIONS, championed them.

I thought that you indicated that ground level photos were invaluable in analyzing and restoring features.

Are you against accurate restorations selectively or universally?

Is this an accurate restoration to 25 years or so ago ?

How many times do you think that that bunker has been worked on over the last 25 years ?  And, did any of those previous projects alter the bunker ?  If not, how did it change over the last 25 years ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2002, 12:41:12 PM »
Patrick;

Since I've been pretty vehement here, permit me to answer your questions;

1) We are crying about the defacing of one of the game's most famous and problematic hazards at the Home of Golf.  We are crying because this has been done in the interest of "fairness" and "equity" and elimination of luck and intense difficulty for the professional game.

2) I endorse restorations when they are done to either replace features that have been lost over time (i.e. removal of bunkers, greenspace, etc.) , or to remove features that have grown up in their place (i.e. new uncharacteristic bunkers, trees, etc.).  

3) Ground level photos can be invaluable in replacing features that have been lost and where there is no longer any "on the ground" reference point.  But why rely on photos when the bunker is STILL THERE?!?  Unfortunately, they are a two-dimensional view of a three-dimensional object and I think you might agree that their value in creating what used to exist can be a poor substitute for handwork that finds the actual original bunker edges, if that's the goal.  In either case, no one at St. Andrews seems to recall the bunker EVER looking like the work that was done.  

4) Always selectively.  Some courses evolve beautifully through TLC and wise maintenance practices.  Others lose features over time, or new, incongruous features are added that stick out like a sore thumb (i.e GCGC's 12th hole).

Some are a mixed bag.  At Merion, for instance, the idea of clearing trees and widening fairways should be applauded, but the idea of making the bunkers look like 1930 (which they clearly don't) was both poorly conceived and poorly executed, in my opinion.

5) 25 or so years ago, I recall Tommy Nakajima putting into the Road Hole bunker.  The fact that it now seems "almost impossible" should answer that question quite clearly.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert_Walker

Re: Road Hole Bunker Changed!
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2002, 12:41:36 PM »
Patrick Mucci,
You are right! The RHB has been nearly impossible for the last few years, especially with the flat bottoms of the 2000 British Open.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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