[TEPaul]

I think this subject has been discussed on here before---it may've even been me who posted it but who can think of some greens that provide clearly different options in putting---different strategies on a single putt in fact (at least two ways to get from one point to a particular pin position)?

It's fairly rare to see something like this. The thread on Boomerang greens and Tom Doak and Jeff Brauer's sentiments that unique greens are best when the architect provides ways to get the ball from any point on a green to any pin position even if that means playing the ball from the green off the green and back on again.

But options in putts, particularly clearly distinct ones!! Who's seen that and how can you deny that's fascinating and fun as could be.

At my own course that I know so well this kind of thing has suddenly sprung up on a few of our greens simply because we upped our greenspeed about one to two feet (from about 9 to sometimes around 11).

When one talks about turning the lights up on greens this is what it's all about. A raised greenspeed can bring all this alive remarkably. It can create some distinct options in putting that you never before knew existed.

In my opinion, it can be an absolute ball and so gratifying to just recognize---and of course to actually carry out.

[PThomas]

Tom -- I can recall a few times in  my life where I have deliberately not tried to make a long putt, because I felt the margin for doing so was very small and the penalty for not doing so was very severe; e.g., the ball would almost for sure wind up at least 10 feet away

in these cases I have aimed to a spot which would (hopefully) leave me with a makeable 3-footer

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have a few highly contoured greens out there that have presented three equal options to putt at the hole - around left end, off right tackle, and right up the gut........

[Jason Topp]

For me the most extreme example of this was on the Dell hole at Lahinch.  The pin was back right and my ball was back left.  I came up with about four different ways to hit the shot and wound up hitting the ball at about a right angle to the hole off the front dune, having it roll to the dune on the right side of the green, catch a slope and wind up about 8 feet from the hole.  

It was really fun to go through the options and wind up with a two putt when I think almost no one would typically get one.

[Darren_Kilfara]

There's a really neat pin position at the back of the 12th green at Machrihanish, in a diagonal trench running from front left to back right. Balls feed nicely down into the trench, but if you miss to the left and slightly long you're left with a massively downhill, left-to-right breaking putt which seems impossible to get close using the "conventional" method (i.e. try and pick a point at the top of the slope well to the left of the hole and have it trickle down to the hole).

I've had this putt a few times, and was delighted to discover one one occasion that it was much easier for me to get the putt close to the hole, and possibly even make it, by ramming my ball well through the break, 10-15 feet up the far wall of the trench, and letting the ball trickle back down the slope. (It's the putting equivalent of what Tiger did at the 16th in the final round of the Masters this year, really.) I've done this in tournament play as well at Machrihanish with great success - the margin for error is much greater - although it's crucial to make sure you *don't* hit the hole on your way past it the first time, as that could cause a lip-out or take away some of the speed you need up the far bank and foil the entire strategy.

And yes, Tom, it was a real thrill the first time I realised that I attempt this putt in this manner and pull it off successfully!

Cheers,
Darren

[Bob_Huntley]

Tom,

I think Neil Regan has yet to find a green where there is  NOT a couple of options.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
I think Neil Regan has yet to find a green where there is  NOT a couple of options.
Bob"

Bob:

Part of that with Neil is he generally treats about 150 yards and in as the putting green!  

[TEPaul]

I realize it sounds like a sort of bad way to go guys, but half the point of all this is around 9-11 these kinds of multiple options on putts just seem to come alive on so many greens in ways even those who've known courses forever never imagined. I'm not exactly recommending the 10-11 differentlial for all courses (I'm only recommending a particular "reasonable maximim" on any course where their particular greens become fun and exciting but still doable. I think any course has to find their own "reasonable maximum" greenspeed but always with the understanding that they will never recontour in the name of speed alone).

Obviously there are many on here who think the differential I'm recommending is too fast but I come from an area that has courses that're old and do have some great greens with loads of slope and contour and they're definitely doable at that differential. Believe me, I know.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom
I think you are quite correct that the elevated green speeds tend to create more options on most putts.
This can also be counter productive when the greens become too fast for the relative green contour and the players have to become totally protective...as such all strategy is removed and conservatism becomes the rule of the day.
Reading what Chet was saying about the Penn Am suggests that the greens at HV were close to this point...but I was not there so I am just guessing...but when a player of that calibre becomes really scared about an 8 footer, is that really taking green speed too far?

I think the contour has to be carefully evaluated prior to grren speed becoming an obsession...I think that there is a good medium there that enables the knid of scenario you are touting here.

I cannot help but think that # 12 at Merion could get out of hand during the amatuer in a few weeks..that being said, I wish I had qualified to find out

[Neil Regan]

I realize it sounds like a sort of bad way to go guys, but half the point of all this is around 9-11 these kinds of multiple options on putts just seem to come alive on so many greens in ways even those who've known courses forever never imagined. ...I come from an area that has courses that're old and do have some great greens with loads of slope and contour and they're definitely doable at that differential. Believe me, I know.

Tom,

   I was just about to make the same point. While it's true that speeds of, say, 11, on steeply contoured greens can result in unpinnable areas, that speed also creates multiple paths to other pinnable areas. Often the different lines have legitimate strategic differences. For example, it might be that you will have a greater chance of sinking the putt if you take the straighter line, but you will also have a much greater chance of finishing near the hole if you take a boomerang line.

  I'd say that at least 31 of the 36 at Winged Foot have common pins with multiple lines. And even though I tend to favor the more unusual paths just for the fun of it, if you were in a serious match there are plenty of times when you'd be right to take the roundabout way.

[TEPaul]

"Often the different lines have legitimate strategic differences. For example, it might be that you will have a greater chance of sinking the putt if you take the straighter line, but you will also have a much greater chance of finishing near the hole if you take a boomerang line."

Neil:

That's so true when greens that have some good slope or contour to them run in the neighborhood of 10-11. That was true at Huntingdon Valley (they were a tad below 11 on the final day (after the cut) when the course was set-up with a more challenging pin scheme). When playing greens like that a lower more aggressive line may make more putts but surely will lead to more three putts (due to "ball creep"). Probably the safest and perhaps even the most successful way to play greens of that speed on slopes or contours is to do what Ben Crenshaw mentioned was responsible for his Masters wins. Ben said; "Take the highest possible line to get the ball to the hole". If you do that on greens that're fast on slopes and contours you're pretty much factoring in "ball creep".

Michael W-P;

I saw that remark by Chet Walsh but I don't think he meant the greens at HVGC were too fast or too scary. They did have  a lot of grain which probably complicated things---obviously on the down-hillls where most of the grain runs with the slope.

Chet's got a ton of imagination---always has had which obvoiusly helps him understand and have a good feel for complex putting situations. He's always been a good putter even if pretty aggressive (I never saw him leave a lot of putts short). There's not a lot that's going on on a golf course that he isn't completely aware of (other than his ball clearly visible in the creek on #12 when he, his caddie, and about 5 others including me looked for it for five minutes outside the creek to no avail)

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom
I do not think there can be much doubt about it, the high line on dangerously fast contoured greens has to be the way to go.
The event at HV sounds like it was great, reading all the comments from sully and chet they were obviously excited about the whole thing,,that speaks volumes for the set up.

I hope that PV is set up somewhat similarly for The Crump.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

GRAIN........on those beautiful bent greens...you only think you know what grain is..come and play my bermuda greens

[TEPaul]

Michael:

My sense watching all the Pa Amateur at HVGC (and testing all the pins before play) was that the way to go there was to play a much higher softer line on the big swinging putts (to factor in ball creep and maximum break) but to play the shorter putts a bit firmer to take the break out. The latter could be scary, sure, but it was probably just safer to trust a bit more speed on those short one rather than let something like grain take control of a slower putt.

For firm shortish putts everyone should visualize the way Tiger does it. Do you believe how firm he hits short to medium putts? Most of them seem to go into the center of the center too!  

Big-time grain at HVGC. They may be the only golf course in human history to actually cultivate grain back into their greens!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

That is really intersting about the grain in the greens at HVGC.
I have not really played amny courses that have bent greens where the grain has been of any significance.
Are we talking about a similar effect to the grain on bermuda greens or is it more subtle than that?

[A_Clay_Man]

You guys should watch some of the really old self-taught guys putt. Not only do they hit putts with action, the action actually provides another range of options.

The one green that came to my mind after reading Tom's post was the fifth at CPC.(or almost any there) Perched on that hill with the contrary sloped right side, I was fortunate to be long and while I hit my shot at the flag I played the contour first one way, then the other. Counter intuition at it's finest.

[Tom_Doak]

Redanman:  I've seen the multiple options on the seventh green at Friars Head when you are on the lower tiers putting up.  However, if you miss high right with the pin low right, I'm not sure there is ANY option to get close to the hole, which is why that green is not one of my favorites.  [If Tommy_N had not declared it the best green in history, I'd just come out and say that it seems awkward to me; maybe I missed a way but I've looked four times now.]

I do think there should be strategic thought required on a lot of short game shots ... chipping, bunker play, and sometimes on a severe putt.  The great courses have those decisions all over them.

PS to Tom Paul:  You have obviously never played High Pointe or Lost Dunes with me, or you'd see some wild options on putts.

[JESII]

After thinking about this question today and wondering just how you can actually have two mutually exclusive directions to play a putt (with the intention of one or two putting) I came to the conclusion that it must be a double breaking putt, with significant ancillary slopes that could be utilized. On any putt with only one break you can obviously take any number of directions that are all correct with the appropriate speed, but only one of them will leave the ball stone dead if you happen to miss. I know this doesn't happen much to you Tom (this missing of a putt)   but the rest of us occasionally have to suffer the embarrasment .

[TEPaul]

TomD:

I have played High Pointe but that was a long time ago---before I got interested in golf architecture. In those days I just played and only thought of the best way to get from here to there---not much else really. I wasn't a fast observer in play back then and I'm still not. If I want to really analyze architecture and certainly how greens work in play I just go out there to do that only---not to actually play the course. Everyone has their own methods of how to analyze best and thats' mine---at least on putting greens. Generally on greens I don't even putt to the pin, I throw tees or coins around and putt from everywhere to them or just putt the greens all over to see what happens.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

Probably the best contour for multiple options from various places to a pin is when that pin is in a swale or somewhat of one. You can use either of the two slopes that form the swale, if you know what I mean. And they could be many yards apart obviously. I'll show you one at GMGC.

And you obviously are aware of the famous "Zorro" putt on #2 PVGC if the greens are fast. You can play almost a sideways putt in that right swale from above a front pin and just let it trickle basically straight down slowly or you can play that famous "Zorro" putt and get the ball rocking back and forth from both sides of that swale.

I can generally imagine some way on most putts but I had that putt one time in an overtime match (I always read my own putts) and I actually asked my caddie if there was anyway to successfully do that putt. I'll never forget he said let me explain the "Zorro" putt to you. He did and I think I said; "You've got to be kidding." He convinced me to try it. It must have been about 45-50 feet, I tried it and made it and won the match right there. Could've been the best putt I ever had. It sure was one that took about the longest to get there.

[Neil Regan]

Tom,

  I think 5 greens at Winged Foot have Z-putts. Occasionally, it's the only putt that will work. People will say "That's an impossible putt", but will change their minds when they see the Z in action.
  One of the most fun things about a Zorro putt is how easy it is if you have the correct line. Once you figure it out, you can putt it one handed, one legged, with your eyes closed, and knock it stiff over and over again. (I have video of this. )

[Doug Siebert]

I can't imagine there is any green anywhere in the world that can compare to the Himalayas putting green at St. Andrews in this regard!  The last time I was there my dad and I went around twice and the first time followed behind a couple women and their children, the second time behind a group of middle aged to senior men.  On both occasions during a majority of the holes, neither my dad, myself or any one of the group ahead of us chose the same way to putt at the hole, but easily proved that there were more than just 2 or 3 possible routes to putt at the hole starting from the same spot!

Certainly there are plenty of greens out there where a given putt can be made by choosing a high line with a lot of break versus a lower line with less break and a bit more speed, or where you can take either side of a ridge.  But I've never seen greens anywhere else where a given putt can be played either fairly (hopefully) straight to get close, playing a big break to either side, or some combination or 2 to 5 breaks back and forth among the mounds and hollows.  If any of us had a week in St. Andrews where we were prohibited from playing any golf save at the Himalayas, we might emerge annoyed at not being able to play TOC, the New or Jubilee, but we would probably return to our home courses better and certainly mroe imaginative in our putting and short games than when we arrived!!

[James Edwards]

Whistling Straits 18th...

Could someone explain to me please what the intention of the green is/was?  It has the potential, it seems, to acquire many divots in a days play due to its '4' segments and the inability to access the pin of the day if the wrong part is hit?  

For the average player, it can't be easy to hit a lob wedge off the green?

[Dan_Lucas]

Kingsley's greens have many places where there are more than one option to get to the hole. Almost every hole has pins where strategy is involved on the green.

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