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John_Conley

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Connotation
« Reply #25 on: August 11, 2005, 01:30:05 AM »
This is not the kind of thing I would ever call "innovative."  At least not if one considers innovation to have a positive connotation.   Does anyone out there think repititious gutter fairways are a good thing?  

So, I guess I just don't agree with Anthony.  I don't see that Jim Engh is "doing stuff that no one else is doing," at least not good stuff.  

I guess we've found the disconnect.  No need to go into the fact you didn't like the Engh course you played.  Once you had that as a backdrop, you overlayed a connotation to the word innovative[/color] that I don't see.  You don't have to like it for something to still be innovative, do you?

The Diabolical Biz Markie addressed the fact that he can't sing by, well, singing.  If you call it that.  Innovation.  Nobody prior to him in pop music made a point to sing poorly.  Joe Cocker was distinctive, but not awful.  Biz?  Awful.  And innovative.

Lagoon Legend is getting plowed under because of its horritude.  But it was very innovative when it opened, hoping to usher in a new era of golf design post-TPC.  The fact that it didn't catch on doesn't take away from the trait of being innovative.

Edsel?  Innovative.  Norman on the World Golf Tour?  Very innovative.  So much so that it exists in the form he prescribed, even if the powers that be saw to it to divorce himself from the concept.

I haven't ever equated innovative to good.  New, yes, but not necessarily good.  Or bad.

Jack_Marr

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2005, 03:38:43 AM »
Those who speculate that Jim Engh spends a lot of money with his style of design are, I think, largely mistaken ... he's kept the costs down by often building things narrow, so the savings in irrigation pretty much cancel out any additional earthmoving costs.  (He doesn't build courses which are impossibly long either, which also saves money.)  And you can't really blame him that much of his work is in the Rocky Mountains, where the extra costs of dealing with rock and drainage problems and low rainfall climates are a given for any designer.

However, Matt, the fact that I've built a couple of courses (out of 25) where we moved a lot of earth around, doesn't really prove anything about my style of design other than it's not too easy to peg.  In contrast, has Jim Engh done a course where he didn't move much earth around?  (None of the four I've seen would qualify, but I've only seen four, so it's an honest question.)

I will be curious to see what he builds on those nine new holes at Carne.



Tom

I e-mailed him re Carne a long time ago and he said that there would be very very little earth moved.

On the "old" course, barely anything was moved for 14 of the holes, but, according to Hackett, "they had to move heaven and earth for the remaining 4 holes".

He must also be doing for little or nothing, because they don't have any money out there.

I also suspect that there will be a fourth nine built out there at some stage, as they have about 250 acres over all - I think.

Anyway, I also look forward to playing a Tom Doak course in Ireland some time in the future. Hopefully it will happen.
John Marr(inan)

Sean_A

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2005, 03:57:48 AM »
Jack

I suspect you are right about a fourth nine.  I wish they would finish the first 18 first though.  When I was there the place was packed.  I couldn't believe how much business they were doing.  It seemed to be a local hangout-especially for kids.  Mind you, at the prices they charge it is amazing this venture can turn a profit.  Hackett and the land must have come very, very cheaply.

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jack_Marr

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2005, 04:30:06 AM »
Sean

I don't think Hackett ever charged over £10,000 (Irish pounds) for a project.

Unfortunately, Hackett is quoted as saying he'd turn in his grave if they ever changed the place. I think there could be better bunkering and greens.

Anyway, it shoujldn't try to be the best course in the world. It should probably just be what it is.
John Marr(inan)

Anthony_Nysse

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2005, 06:24:46 AM »
DM,
  He's not caught up in worrying about the speed of greens-therfore he has built some severe slopes and tiers in his greens-he is not afraid to have blind approach shots with a tiny green (#9 at Tullymore) He's not afraid to have deep bunkers, deep bunkers that don't allow for an easy out, he doesn't always design his course for the "weekend warrior" I just love that fact that he offers alot of options and angles-#1 at Tullymore for example-The ideal drive is left near the fwy bunker so that you do not have to mess with the large pine on the right of your approach, #9 at Tullymore-A par 4 where the best drive is to the right, but you need to carry more of the native area and left there is a bunker in the middle of the fairway....I could go on and on, He does some very intimidating, visual appealing golf courses that, to someone who sees architecture, enjoys and can rave about-As much as I love natural golf courses, I really like Engh's stuff because it's bold, has attitude and is on the edge. His courses have options somehwat like Kinloch and, in my opinon, that's a strong part of what makes Kinloch so good.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Matt_Ward

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2005, 02:39:54 PM »
Tom:

The question posed was about architects who move around plenty of material to get a finished product. While there's no doubt that a good number of your previous efforts have featured a limited amount of earthmoving -- it's also clear The Rawls Course did feature a significant amount of earthwork to create what was there. And, I salute the outcome because the course is indeed a very fun and challenging layout and one I would love to play again when in the general Lubbock area.

I didn't "peg" you or any other architect for that matter. That's what others on this site do frequently.

Engh is now moving out of the Mountain Tim Zone area and it behooves all the naysayers to bite their tongues and do what you have suggested -- wait and see the finished products. Of course -- if other architects (those that get most favored status here) had won the numerous awards that Engh has received previously you would have had a major league groundswell that such architects are the best thing to happen since sliced bread.

Unfortunately, there are a few folks here on GCA who have actually played a very tiny semblance of Engh's designs and ipso facto have the "definitive" understanding of what the man is capable of and / or limited in what he can do in future projects. The ability to read the tarrot cards is mindboggling and I stand in awe of such deep left field seat analysis.

What's also amusing is that no matter what information is presented -- from the people who have played numerous layouts of his -- it will never convince those who are stuck in the mud with their core / ignorant beliefs on what is the "one true way" in designing courses. This idea that they can be convinced or even offering the pretense of having an "open mind" is indeed a pure joke at best.

Tom -- if you want to see courses with less earthwork then visit Redlands Mesa in Grand Junction. It's considerably less than what he moved at Sanctuary and Pradera. However, as I said previously, you pose an honest question but let's allow the portfolio to expand to those locations where the sheer nature of such sites is not another rugged tough as nails site from which he is often judged.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2005, 05:03:42 PM »
Matt:

This is a useless exercise. DMoriaraty just likes to post in the negative rather than play Engh's portfolio.

If he choices not to play the portfolio, he needs to move on because he repeats his hatred for Black Rock and Engh's work there.

Engh's architecture is just not for him, and that is ok. I don't like Pinehurst #2, I find it boring, and that's ok for me. I chose not to play again, but I have played Lakota Canyon about 15 times now and like it just as much now as when I was first wowed by it.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Geoffrey Childs

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2005, 12:53:31 PM »

I will be curious to see what he builds on those nine new holes at Carne.

I agree.  I've seen the land for the addition to Carne (I posted pictures some years ago now as well) and it is wildly moving tall dunes almost akin to the land that the Cashen course occupies.  We will see what is done given such a natural property.

Geoffrey Childs

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2005, 01:14:15 PM »
I'm curious about this job as well.  
Seems to create a real dilemna for Mr. Engh.   Will he impose his will on the land like he did at Black Rock and perhaps other sites, or will he reinvent himself?  

I'd loved to know what it was specifically that motivated Carne to hire him for this job.  Did they see his other courses?   What, specifically, did they like?   What are they expecting?    

David-  It is an interesting choice.  When I was at Carne in 2000 there was talk of a complete new 18 as they had enough prime land much of which looked superior (not that I can really tell  ::) ) to parts of the Carne course itself.  I spoke at length with Emmon (forgot his last name right now but its in Jim Finnegan's book on Ireland in the Carne discussion) who is/was in charge of the development.  I had assumed they would go with an Irish architect but we did discuss getting C & C and Doak to look at the property. I would think that a new 9 hole addition instead of a full course would impact who would take the job as well.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2005, 01:17:49 PM »
DMoriarity:

I explained over and over again why I think Engh's work is excellent. You simply ignore those posts and repeatly say that I say nothing.

Talking to you is a useless exercise because you are sooo stubborn and single minded.

Playing Pinehurst number 2 wears you out with the same shots over and over again.

Playing Lakota is thrilling for me and everyone I have played there with. For you, it would be another gutter ball fairway and bowl greens.

Engh is a terrific guy...sorry I can't say the same about you.

Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John_Conley

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2005, 02:35:29 PM »
Engh is a terrific guy...sorry I can't say the same about you.

C'mon now, no need for aspersions.  Seems like this doesn't have to be taken this seriously.

A_Clay_Man

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2005, 05:43:17 PM »
John Conley, That is a surprse!  
While I have only golfed Redlands, I thought there was much more refreshing stuff, than anything, else there.
I even thought his humor was evident, and, I never would've made the corrolation, to either K&N, or Joe Finger, about Jim Engh.Thanx.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2005, 06:57:29 PM »
DM:

It is considered bad form to bash an architect's creative work, there are positive ways to say that you don't like something, e.g., I was underwhelmed.

I don't liek to critize architects, they take things personally, and I consider it bad form.


I was in the creative business once, and when someone came in and bashed our line, most of the time these were the guys who had no taste and if they bought our stuff, we couldn't even direct them to the best stuff. Most, if not all of these guys, went chapter 7 or 11.

We had 10 full time artists and 2 design directors, and while we wanted them to hear constructive criticisms, most of our customers had the good sense to say what needed to be said without pissing off everybody.

I never said you were a bad guy, I don't know you from Wiston Churchill or OJ, I just have trouble with your form, stir the pot with negativism and then claim we are thin skinned. Putting that aside once and for all and lets not revisit it.

Now, to answer your question as to why Lakota and Engh work is so good in my opinion:

1. Tees: he gives you a number of very elevated tees into landing areas that are most often pretty unique. Yes, sometimes there is the containment element, but you still have to hit within the confines of it or else, you ball is either history, or you are left with a recovery shot at best. Even if you hit in the confinement, there is a 50/50 chance that the ball will hang up on a sidehill lie in the rough, a very challenging shot at best.

Many of his landing areas have ravines or junk on one or both sides, so if it isn't a hazard, you have an automatic double. You're left his the choice of being conservative and hitting a 3 wood and then a longer shotinto the green, or confidently hitting your driver to what seems like tiny landing areas (which in fact are pretty generous).

The 4th hole at Lakota is a very elevated tee, over a ravine, into a fairways that kicks left, the 2nd shot goes uphill, I use a 4 wood, and leaves me around 100 yards up to a very eleveated green with a blind pin. You must try to hit the ball behind the pin and suck it back, but if you are the least bit long, it hangs up in the long grass and you are left with a very fast putt which depending on the pin placement, you either can or cannot get close.

I like the elevated tees and for example on #5,if I can hit the drive right center, I can get a 50 yard kick and reach the green in 2, 583 yards. If I hit the ball center or left center, I have have to hit wedge or 8 iron over a tree to get to the end of the lay up area. Then I'm left with a slightly downhill wedge into a green that runs away and kicks left.

I like the uphill, downhill and sidehill lies. I challenges my game. I like the kick that you get off the greens, so I try to hit the shot with the correct club, correct traj, and plan for the kick. I like that stragety.

Engh's green's are another whole story. I like the 3 level greens that kick right or left, and try to challenge myself to hit the shot into the correct spot to get the correct kick to leave myself on the proper level to have a birdie opportunity.

The greens challenge me everytime, and if you are not on the correct level, 2 putting is 50/50.

If you miss the green and it is a bowl or a partial bowl (1/2), the kicks can be positive or weird. The ball may shoot accross and leave you with a 100 foot putt or you may get lucky.

Engh's 3 rd hole is a par 3, 170 yards from an elevated tee that you must walk thru the pinon pines and go up maybe 100 feet. The green is bomerrang shaped. You get a shot of adrelian when you hit your tee shot correctly, and by that I mean right height, right hand time, etc so as to go the proper distance. Again on this hole, is you are above the pin, you must hit a protective putt to make par and many times I have had a birdie putt to be left with a 12 footer comming back.

His greens are a real challenge to read and putt. I like the challenge.

Engh's bunkers. I like all his bunkering except the thin stripped that fall in on both sides. I have no problem with them. There is only a 50/50 change that you will wind up in the sand, the rest of the time, you get very award sidehill, downhill, uphill lies that are tricky at best. My wife who has a knee problem, can't always get down or up from the bunkers and I have to help her.

I like his pots and his variety.

Downhill chipping from the bowl I have learned to pretty much master. Sometimes the putter is better, you cannot land  it on the green, you must pick a spot in the long grass and hit to that spot at the right height and with the correct finesse, otherwise you are history.

The 17th hole par 3 is another elevated tee from 190 yards. to the front pin placement I hit a 9 iron, to the back pin placement I hit a 5 iron into the top green which looks like the unfilled top of a ballon, the best pin placement and very challenging. If you leave yourself shot of this elevated green portion, you must slug you putt to get it uphill and then hope you have less than a 10 footer left. This portion is probably 15 feet above the center portion.

I could go on and on, but the point is, the entire day is filled with chanllenge after challenge on your tee shots, approach shots, putting and chipping.

My low score at Lakota is 72 and my high score is 86. You have to be on your game to shot a low number.

The course is not long, 7100 from the tips, but with the elevated tees and altitude, it plays much shorter, so a good round can be had.

I am not long enough to go for the par 5's as a general rule, but the 11th offers me a challenge that I hit once in 2 when I went for it, and the next time I hit it in the water in 2. Those were the only 2 times I went for the green in 2. Risk/Reward is also available on the par 5 first and the par 5 18th, which I reached in 2 twice, both times with perfect 3 woods.



My wife and I have played with other couples where all 4 sets of tees were used, and everyone so enjoyed themselves it was amazing.

When you are off your game, and I have been, it can be very frustating. 18 can be a bitch or a beauty. It took my wife 10 rounds to figure out how to play it, ditto for myself. We no longer hit our second shots into the fairway on the right. We lay up to the end of the fairway so we can get aflat lie, and go for the green. It is not the best angle, but you have a choice of angle or lie, and we take the lie.

At the end of the day,, you know you were challenged and thrilled. Unlike Pinehurst #2, you have so much variety that your entire I game is challenged.I love the variety, the challenge of lies, carries, bounces, etc.

Fred Ruttenberg played it once and declared it too easy because his buddy got 3 bounces that left him with birdie putts. Fred is a 14 handicap and shot 81. He also thought it would be too easy. I'll bet anyone that if Fred is off his game which is about 60% of the time, he won't break 100. That's why repeated plays are needed to correctly assess a golf course like this.

My wife is challenged in her game just as I am, and she leaves the course happy or frustrated, but always thrilled by the course itself.

Redlands Mesa is a little tamer layout that has some outstanding holes. The par 5 4th or 5th, drive, 4 iron layup, to a 70 foor elevated green  over a creek and hill with 2 major tiers about 10 foot elevation change on the green itself.The 17th is 239 from the back elevated tee, at Snowmass the 6th is a par 3, 279 yards from the back tee with a green that falls away on 3 sides.

I could go on and on. There is not a hole that is 429 yards long, flat, sourrounded by trees, that if you miss the fairway, you chip out with your 5 iron and make bogey. Boring. I've played a 1000 of them holes.

Lakota is not a test of golf that will bring you to your knees as so many difficult courses can. The Bear Club in Jupiter, while a fine course, and whip you to pieces if your driving is off line. Lots of guys have walked off that course saying, "don't ever invite me back." I once ran out of balls on the 17th tee.

DM: I hope I finally answered your question. Still, Lakota is not for everybody. If you spray the ball alot, you probably should take a pass. If you have the chipping yipps, not your place. But, most love the course, not most CGA guys becasue they are more minimialists, and I can respect that, but I guarantee they will be more challenged at Lakota than a raft of courses they think highly of.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 07:05:35 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

John_Conley

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2005, 07:20:20 PM »
Quass:

I haven't read it, but that is a long post that attempts to thoroughly explain how you feel about the Engh courses and it gets into specifics instead of sound bites.  Good job.  When I have time I'll read.  That is an example of what makes this site great.

Jack_Marr

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2005, 07:22:05 PM »
I'm curious about this job as well.  
Seems to create a real dilemna for Mr. Engh.   Will he impose his will on the land like he did at Black Rock and perhaps other sites, or will he reinvent himself?  

I'd loved to know what it was specifically that motivated Carne to hire him for this job.  Did they see his other courses?   What, specifically, did they like?   What are they expecting?    

I would say they went with Jim Engh because he was a member of the club and because he was willing to do it fairly cheaply. I'm sure they would also have noted that he won Golf Architect of the year etc. I would say they know nothing about golf architecture, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

I doubt they ever heard of Coore and Crenshaw, Tom Doak, Jim Engh or anyone like that beforehand.

I'm sure they were also influenced by his entheusiasm for the project. Mostly money, though.

Again, I believe there will be very little earth moved for these nine holes. That's what I have heard. To be honest, I don't really care how much earth is moved as long as the result is good. He says he's to take inspiration from the back nine there, so that's his guide.

Also, it could be up to three years before the project is finished.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2005, 07:23:57 PM by Jack_Marr »
John Marr(inan)

Matt_Ward

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2005, 07:24:17 PM »
David M:

My last retort to your banter ...

Ergo --

You play one Engh course and have the complete profile on the man and what he is capable in designing. OK. Sure. ::)

You have a supreme "ability" to play one course and then apply a permanent "tag" against others who have played a wider variety of what the man has designed to date. I'm impressed by your couch potato analysis -- maybe you and Tom MacWood can share notes with each other on the requisite skills that it takes to do that.

Of course -- when positions are pointed out on why Engh has done well you come back with the same repetitive mumbo jumbo that we (Cary, myself and others) don't know squat but low and behold David M knows the full story.

I have provided a wide array of analysis on all the Engh courses I have played to date. You can look it up if you are interested. If not -- then so be it -- I'm not going to rehash what's already been said.

David -- if you don't like Black Rock -- fair enough. But please don't make yourself look even more foolish on applying the broadest of brushes to a man's design skills when you have only played one of his courses.

I'm not going to be drawn into your silly back and forth antics. Nothing I said previously or can offer now will change your mind. You have a dead set opinion on Engh. Fine. Please don't masquerade with the "open mind" stance when the facts say otherwise.

I said this before -- I have great respect for you in most instances -- please don't force me to say I have lost complete respect. You're better than that.

TEPaul

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2005, 03:52:30 AM »
cary lichtenstein said;

"DMoriarity:
I explained over and over again why I think Engh's work is excellent. You simply ignore those posts and repeatly say that I say nothing.
Talking to you is a useless exercise because you are sooo stubborn and single minded."

cary, my good man---

In my odd world we might describe you as a "fine fettled fellow" simply because your description of talking to David Moriarty as 'talking to you is a useless excercise because you are sooo stubborn and single minded' happens to be a marvelous euphemism on your part for how some should and undoutedly would describe talking to David Moriarty. And I do not say this simply because David Moriarty has accused me of being things like 'a lifeless drunk'---I say it simply because even if your description of talking to him is highly euphemistic it is wholly accurate nonetheless.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 03:56:57 AM by TEPaul »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2005, 09:24:49 AM »
I should probably clarify, for historical accuracy, John's original post of what I said.  While his quote was accurate, my content wasn't.

Jim never worked for K and N, but did work for Nugent shortly after the split. I still see a lot of Dick Nugent influence in his work and still see a lot of it in my work, as well, even if we have both experimented in different directions over the last 20 years.

I guess its mostly in the somewhat large scale of the work, although mine varies from course to course a bit, and Jim's may, but most of the photos I see are on sites with broad vistas, and Dick always said to make things bigger in those situations to fit in.

I guess I would be interested to hear what John thinks Jim did to go astray?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2005, 01:18:25 PM »
"TomPaul, that you seem to still be following me around with these petty pot shots, unable to keep to your own business, reminds me that what I actually called you was a pitiful lifeless drunk.  Pathetic might have been a slightly better term.  
Leave me be."

David Moriarty:

Are you serious? It's great to see a little cry-baby like you react like that on a Saturday morning ("Oh darn, what will I call him---a pitiful lifeless drunk or a pathetic lifeless drunk? Oh, I can't decide, it's such a difficult decision!"). Leave a guy LIKE YOU be on here?

NEVER!   ;)

John_Conley

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2005, 10:38:52 PM »
Jeff:  You were telling me about the tree of guys doing work after having spent some time in similar positions early in your careers.  Knowing that Engh's work has been of interest recently on the site, I thought I'd see if anyone was interested in speculating as to why his courses today look so much different than what others are doing.

In truth, your course at Cowboys has a couple "Enghfers" - short par 4s where the big hitter garners a huge advantage.  Andrew and his friend were trying to pop it on #2 and #4 is a hole that seems to open up after the bunker.  

Now look at Indian Creek.  While it isn't your routing, I gathered that it could be.  Perhaps the Engh pictures I see are from radically different sites.

TRUE STORY:  When I played Sanctuary the first hole was into a wall of fog.  Hit and hope.  No directional landmarks because you couldn't see ANYTHING.  Last week a friend was going on and on about Hawktree, where he played with another friend.  So a few days later I'm talking to that guy and all he can talk about is the first hole.  Turns out Hawktree also starts with a hugely elevated tee and guess what, THEY PLAYED INTO A WALL OF FOG TOO!!  So from this we can surmise that all of Engh's courses have walls of fog in front of the tee on severe downhill opening shots!

Believe me, the tone was intended to be more tongue-in-cheek that it wound up being.  It wasn't to give Moriarty and Quass another ring to brawl in.

I never intended for "stray" to imply anything negative.  The creators of X-Box strayed from their normal work at Microsoft.  Geraldo Rivera strayed from his assignments and kept going straight to the front lines of battle.  Heck, some dude was on TV last night for straying from society and living with bears for years.  That is, until being eaten by one.

Good news for me.  I might be in Big D soon with an afternoon to kill before flying back.  I want another crack at Indian Creek.

cary lichtenstein

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Re:When did Jim Engh stray?
« Reply #45 on: August 13, 2005, 11:20:26 PM »
Being from Chicago, I played a bunch of Killian and Nugent courses, which frankly were all the same, seen one, sen them all, same formaula holes.

Engh's work bears no resembelance to theirs in my opinion.

Sanctuary:

When I played it, it was bright and Sunny ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

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