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Paul_Turner

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2005, 12:37:18 PM »
Tom

Yes, it's definitely Mackenzie's hand.  Just wanted to pin down the date.

Colt mixed it up with Roman and normal numbers, sometimes on the same plan.   Like Hamilton, which has the main 18 in normal numbers but the short 9 in Roman.

can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Paul_Turner

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2005, 12:53:29 PM »
I just had a look at Ran's profile and it reminded me how good some of the green surfaces are.  Complex slopes at grade:  the side slope of the 3rd being one example.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bill_McBride

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2005, 05:51:41 PM »
Tom P and Paul Turner:  the lower tier left of #3 is what really makes that hole interesting.  It would be very difficult to get close if the pin was down there.  I found #8 to be a lot more interesting with the cross hazard of rough and bunker making you think and work on that second shot.

The plan hanging on the wall in the clubhouse is a copy.  Our host had the original and several copies when we looked at them after our round.  I didn't see a date on the plan, didn't really look for one, but as Tom P says, the holes on the ground except for #10 are exactly as drawn.

I just thought everything about Alwoodley was perfect.  The "springy turf," the great open meadow feeling with gorse and heather in abundance, the rolling but not hilly terrain except for that back corner with #10 and #11.

If the course hasn't changed much it's an interesting time capsule and a testimonial to Dr. MacKenzie's advanced design ideas.  I guess there was still a lot of geometric golf design still in existence then.  Wasn't Bernard Darwin's "Golf Courses of Great Britain" written about then?  I just checked; according to the introduction the book was published in 1910.  Not sure why Alwoodley wasn't mentioned.   Maybe Darwin wrote the section on golf in the Midlands earlier.

TEPaul

Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2005, 10:55:05 PM »
"Complex slopes at grade:  the side slope of the 3rd being one example.

Paul:

I guess that just shows why I'm no good at playing golf and looking at the specifics of architecture at the same time. I just can't remember that side slope on the 3rd green.

Bill_McBride

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2005, 11:06:18 PM »
Tom, it was more of a lower tier/bowl on the left side.  About 1/3 of the green area, and maybe 12-18" below the higher right side.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2005, 11:51:17 AM »
Bill

Alwoodley is certainly conspicuous in its absence from Darwin's book!  I've always thought it strange since Alwoodley did receive a some positive press at opening in Golf Illustrated.  
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bill_McBride

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2005, 03:47:09 PM »
Paul, my reprint shows 1910 as the publication date of Darwin's book, but don't you think he probably wrote some sections earlier?  There is also no mention of MacKenzie, at least not according to the index.

One of my favorite verbs comes straight out of Darwin's book: "to foozle!"  ::)  

The other I think is from Herbert Warren Wind, I think, "to diegel," referring to the goofy putting stance of Leo Diegel with his elbows straight out on both sides!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2005, 01:35:30 PM »
I hope to answer some of these questions in the centenary book I'm lucky enough to be writing for Alwoodley, but there are all sorts of caveats and conundrums in the way of definitive judgements.  The longer I spend with the material, however, the more I think that the bulk of the design is Mackenzie's.  However, USGA-greens or not, the putting surfaces are not exactly what Mackenzie left us - the 16th was stepped, the 15th much broader, for instance.  You can also argue about the bunkers - early photos of the 11th showing bunkers lying and raised above the putting surface, for instance - but you have to commend the work of the Greens Committee in recent years in establishing what they have done on a limited budget and with clearly defined objectives.  The extent of their achievement will, I hope, become apparent in the book.

MikeJones

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Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2005, 05:02:59 PM »
I've played Alwoodley many times ranging from friendly games to Open qualifying rounds. I remember a few years back, of all the Open qualifying courses, Alwoodley had the highest qualifying score. It's no pushover.

One interesting feature was in the Open qualifying the par 5, 3rd hole was set up with a miles wide fairway, it must have been 50 yards wide. Playing downwind it was a fairly easy birdie. The next hole, the nightmare, long par 4, 4th had a narrow fairway, gorse and bunkers all over the place and was playing into the strong prevailing wind. I made 4 at both but the 4 at the 4th was so much sweeter than the one at the 3rd!

The par 3, 11th is also an interesting hole. It has a hugely tilted green from back to front which is really it's main feature and once you're on the putting surface your work has really only just begun. You can easily have a 5 inch break on a two foot sidehill putt there.

It's a tremendous course and one of my favourite English, inland courses along with Beu Dessert.



« Last Edit: August 13, 2005, 05:07:54 PM by MikeJones »

peter_p

Re:Dr. MacKenzie's Alwoodley
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2005, 06:13:38 PM »
The furrows appear as early as the third hole and I took pictures of them. The long socks can cover up unsightly medical problems.

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