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NAF

Yesterday I had the pleasure of playing (well 13 holes before t-storms) the CC of Waterbury.  While I've put up some threads before on it, actually playing it and seeing some of this history (they have a 100 year book) in writing helped.  The course is about to hold the Connecticut Open next week and curiously is going through an irrigation system change.  It was burnt out (I liked that!) but there was a fair amount of green desiccation given the problems with the Northeast weather.  A few fairways were mottled as well.  I could care less about this as the greens rolled nicely but the arts and croissant country club set may have their issues.  It doesn't matter as next year the course will be back in prime shape and GREEN I'm sure..  It is a very cunning par 69 like Wanamoissett at just shy of 6400 yards.  Course plays longer just like Pasatiempo given the routing along the property.

From the air (I saw an aerial in the grill room), the property is quite tight, yet Ross made terrific use of it and you never feel cramped although the course is bounded by some busy roads (you are sheltered by them).  There are some terrific elevation changes as this is a rock strewn rolling hills and Ross builds the drama by having you at the top of the property on the 9th hole (the only par 5) and then back again by the clubhouse.  The course was blasted out of granite and there are chocolate drops that I assumed were buried rock on a few holes.  In the last few years 900 trees were felled (according to the maintenance crew guy I rode with who drove me in from the storms) and every bunker has been rebuilt and a few added (Ross had very few bunkers on his plan).  I believe Brian Silva is the consulting archie.  One interesting thing about Waterbury is there was an original 18 hole course there before Ross came in May 1927-- he was actively on site coming once a month the history book says.  His task was to build 11-12 new holes and integrate some of the former holes in the new design.  The original 18 was composed of nine holes built in 1908 and another nine in 1920.  The ubiquitous fire that seems to afflict all old clubs claimed the clubhouse and they lost all details about those old holes.  No one knows who designed them, they believe members actually laid them out.  CC of Waterbury wanted to make sure the club would be taken seriously and that is why they hired DR.  They are proud of the fact he made so many on site visits as the reckon in 1926 he had 3,000 people working for him on various projects.  As per the holes (I think Tom MacWood wanted to know who did what)--

Holes 1-3 are all Ross
Hole #4 part Ross- he wanted it to bend more to the right but land could not be purchased
Holes 5-7 are pre Ross--He just amended some of the bunkers and greens.  The 6th is a delicious uphill par 4 that reminded me of the 4th at Plainfield.  It has what appears to be Church Pew like bunkers on the left from the tee.  It feels drivable at 307 yards and I played with a pro who is playing in the Conn. Open and he came up just short.  The green is very cool and I'm not sure it is Ross, his notes say the present green (the old one) was to be used--it is shaped like a lays potato chip and has a cool hump on the right side that can fling balls to the back of the green if you use it.  Michael Fay put this hole in his Ross book and it might not be Ross at all!  Regardless, it is a wonderful hole.

The 7th looks like the 14th at Shinnecock in its layout but it actually twists left to right to a corkscrew fairway which narrows to 8 yards.  A very difficult driving hole to get in the right position.  One has a hanging left to right lie then to a green which is open in front but someone plateaued.  This was one of my favorite holes on the course.  Curiously hitting driver here is the wrong play as you need to play for position with the softest of fades.

8th is Ross- A neat short par 3 style hole where long is the only safe play.  

9th- Short par 5 (the only one) with a massive downhill tee shot.  The hole is only 484 yards long but the green is protected left by a stream and pond.  It is a wonderful half par hole and the tee shot is a joy to watch fall out of the sky.  The hole is mainly Ross

10th- Back up the hill you just played down.  Ross wanted it to dogleg a bit more to the right but the property didn't suit.  250 yards out is a large protuberance or chocolate drop that is massive.  The right play is to lay-up in front of it--your second shot is severely uphill to a skyline green..

11th- Mainly Ross- A very sharp dogleg right that plays downhill and is short and seductive enough to make you think it is drivable.

12-13- Existing holes

14-18 Ross..   The 15th thru 18th play back and forth.  The only evidence that the routing is a bit tighter than one thinks.. I only got to tour these holes given the coming rain but they all looked solid and fun.

Overall, if you are in Connecticut and can't play Yale, Fishers Island, this is a most worthy place to play.  A very enjoyable round and similar in ethos and spirit to Wanamoissett.

Very cool pix and Donald Ross notes at:

www.ccwaterbury.com
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 08:11:23 AM by NAF »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2005, 09:44:08 AM »
Noel,

Did you check out the initiation fee and waiting list size while you were there?   ;)

Don Herdrich

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2005, 10:00:41 AM »
"Overall, if you are in Connecticut and can't play Yale, Fishers Island, this is a most worthy place to play."

you are forgetting a slew of clubs my friend.....New Haven, Stanwich, Round Hill, Shuttle Meadow, CC of Fairfield, Wee Burn, Woodway, Hartford, CT Golf Club and many others (in no particular order).

Waterbury is a good course, but is not in the top 25 of CT private courses.

Phil Benedict

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2005, 10:52:53 AM »
I play Waterbury all the time and concur with your comments.  The common refrain among the members is that "you never get tired of playing the course."  I don't think the course gets as much respect as it should in the rankings because of the par 69 factor.  As an editorial aside, Golf Digest's ranking Great River #2 in the state is a travesty.  Ahead of Yale?

The club added about 250 yards with new back tees on six holes this year.  They don't use the furthest back tees for regular play but I'm sure that will be the set up for the Connecticut Am.  Course changes affect a couple of holes you mentioned:

1)  They added a third fairway bunker on 6, adding maybe 25 yards of carry to get over the bunkers.  It was a no-brainer for the long hitters to carry the bunkers before this bunker was added.  Fun hole to play especially when the pin is in the middle or back because there are lots of options on how to hit the second shot.
2)  There is a new back tee on the par five 9th that makes the hole 510 or so.  The extra length has turned what was previously a drive and mid-iron to a drive and a long iron for the bigger hitters.  It's a lot harder second shot with a three iron than a six iron.


SPDB

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2005, 11:17:39 AM »
Don:

I'd be curious what you consider the Top 25 private courses in Connecticut. It's not a very illustrious group. Saying a course is not in the Top 25 of CT is bordering on an insult.

ChipRoyce

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 11:38:39 AM »
Very interesting - thanks for bringing this to our attention. Looks like great land for the course - see a few similarities to Essex County Club. What strikes me is the noticable absence of fairway bunkers in the Tee shot landing areas. Guessing that there's more roll to the course than meets the eye and heavy rough to place a premium on hitting the fairway.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2005, 01:28:49 PM »
Don,
Quote
Waterbury is a good course, but is not in the top 25 of CT private courses.
It was a bit hectic this morning at Hotchkiss. We had a group of  34 seasoned citizens, men and women, playing an alternate shot event which was originally planned for 24 players. After the chaos I read your post. Thanks for the chuckle.  ::)

NAF,
Quote
The 6th is a delicious uphill par 4......(the green)is shaped like a lays potato chip and has a cool hump on the right side that can fling balls to the back of the green if you use it.
I've seen that hump used as a backstop for a recovery shot to a right side pin. The approach was long so the shot was from over the back of the green and there didn't seem to be any way to get it close from there. We looked at the hump in question and figured that a shot hit into the face would kick the ball back toward the flag. It worked like a charm and my partner saved par. It really is a great green.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 04:08:21 PM by jim_kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Don Herdrich

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2005, 08:36:21 PM »
I really didn't mean to be funny with my previous post, but if I have to go through the list (public and private), I will....better than Waterbury IMO:

Yale, CC of Fairfield, Brooklawn, Stanwich, Round Hill, Woodway, Wee Burn, New Haven, Hartford, Shuttle Meadow, Bulls Bridge, Shorehaven, CT Golf Club, Patterson Club, Black Hall Club, Lake of Isles Private, Greenwich, Tamarack, Aspetuck Valley,  Richter Park, Wintonbury Hills, Lake of Isles Resort

that is 22 and I have not included TPC (which sucks IMO) and otgher munis........not including WCC in the top 20 or 25 courses in the state is not an insult, it is the truth........WCC is Wampanoag southwest......

NAF

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2005, 07:45:13 AM »
Don-

I respectfully disagree...

I'll easily give you Yale and Fairfield on that list.  I've not played a bunch on that list but have seen Woodway, Stanwich, Brooklawn, Greenwich, Aspetuck Valley, Wintonbury and when you get down to the DESIGN-- I don't think Waterbury is below them.

Stanwich- is long and dull and Fazio has completely redone parts of it b/c the members are so concerned with rankings.  People rate is so highly due to its conditioning and uber fast greens..

Greenwich is a fun design with a hodge podge of archies but several weak holes IMHO..

Brooklawn was pleasant enough but I think Tillinghast couldnt do much with the routing he inherited.  I was quite bored with it.

Woodway- I liked a lot of the holes here and if they put the member who took me around in charge and let him hire someone to restore it and blow up the current new 9th hole, it would rank much higher.

Wintonbury- very cunning and cute.  I liked it a lot and wish I lived closer to play it all the time.  The super kept it firm and fast and it is definitely the best muni in Ct.

Shorehaven- I walked it as it is 2 miles from my house.  I think it is underrated but the design is a notch below Waterbury.  Par 3 second hole is very cool as well as the cape drive over the estuary (forget which hole that was)

Right now CC Waterbury is having problems with conditions due to a new irrigation system being put in, but I think it is a cunning par 69.. I wonder if I renamed Wanamoissett and put it in Connecticut without its reputaion if you would rank that low in Connecticut to.  I'm not saying Waterbury is the equal but like I said in ethos and spirit they are kindred..

This probably won't float with you b/c I know you love Wanamoissett.. For me best holes there (2,3,5,7,12,14) are superior to Waterbury but Wanmoissett's other holes are on the same level with many at Waterbury. My fav holes at Waterbury would be 1,6,7,9,10,13,18....
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 08:03:39 AM by NAF »

Dan_Callahan

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2005, 08:00:49 AM »
WCC is Wampanoag southwest......

Huh? I assume from this comment that you are not a fan of Wampanoag. I have never played Waterbury, but in my opinion Wampanoag is a very good course. It might have the ugliest clubhouse in Connecticut, but the golf is great. Comparing Waterbury to Wamp leads me to believe that Waterbury is probably worth playing.

Don Herdrich

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2005, 08:29:58 AM »
sounds like you really like Waterbury.......seems like a no-brainer that you try to join.....I believe they had some deals a few years back, not sure what the waiting list is today....it cannot be that expensive compared to what you are shelling out in New Jersey!  Good luck!

NAF

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2005, 08:33:46 AM »
Not sure about joining anywhere. Methinks Yale would be the right place to play and join.. I can't believe they want 4k initiation though!

michael_j_fay

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2005, 09:59:30 AM »
Waterbury is a wonderful Ross layout. I look forward toseeing the new bunkering. I was not aware that #6 pre-dated Ross but the hole is a real gem and that is why he incorporated it into the design.

As for Wampanoag I am totally biased. I have played there for nearly 50 years and believe it to be the best in northern
Connecticut.

Even though there are holes that have been altered at Wampanoag the routing is as good as it gets. The course has retained a good deal of Ross flavor, strategy and playability. Wampanoag has character whereas numerous highly regarded older courses have been redeigned over the years to the extent that homogenous flavor has been lost.

Yale is the best designed course in our State. The Willie Park, Jr. courses (Shuttle Meadow, New Haven, New Canaan, Madison and Woodway) are all very good examples of Park and playable on a continual basis. Wampanoag, Hartford, Waterbury and Shecossett are the Ross designed courses and have all fallen from there original magnificence but still remain wonderful courses. I would have loved to have seen Shenecott in its' original form with 160 bunkers tucked right next to the Sound.

Yale and CC of Fairfield have both been altered to their detriment (Cornish and Rulewich, respectively) but remain sound playable examples of the genius of Seth Raynor.

I do not comment much on newer courses but I can say unequivocally that Great River is not even in the top 25 of the State, much less #2. Methinks that Ad revenues get it to the position it is in.

A couple of other comments on CT golf.

Stanwich is a joke. It is too long, too difficult and too boring to be a serious contender for anything. The members of Stanwich who work forGolf Digest have pumped up this nightmare for years'

Brooklawn is our only Tillinghast course, not that you can tell through the forest that has enveloped it. If the members were to opt for 10 years of firewood they would do us all a favor.

Black Hall is ridiculous. Borne in the Trent Jones "Canine Era" this little beauty sports nine 90 degree doglegs. At least one of them # 15 has no landing area.

Wintonbury Hills IMHO is the one shining light of the courses built in the Nutmeg State in the past 75 years. This is real golf, enjoyable for all levels of play.

Here is my top ten:

Yale
Round Hill
Woodway (would jump up with a redesign of # 9)
CC of Fairfield
Wampanoag
Wintonbury Hills
New Haven
Shuttle Meadow
Waterbury
Wee Burn

I cannot say this list is totally complete, in that, I have only played 109 of the 168 courses in the State.

michael_j_fay

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2005, 10:03:18 AM »
About the Wampanoag clubhouse, I must concur. The membership has not been lucky enough to have a fire so it remains. This takes a lot of heat off the Hartford Golf Club because without the Wampanoag clubhouse, they would have the ugliest building in Hartford County.


Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2005, 10:30:43 AM »
My 2 cents...

I've played Waterbury in a Nat'l Qualifier more than 10 years ago and really loved it.

Definitely worth playing.

If Waterbury CC is not in our Top 25 in the State, then maybe we are not as "Golf Poor" as people thought in a prior post.

And Micheal J. Fay, Woodway's 9th Hole really does suck!

JWK

Paul_Turner

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Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2005, 12:11:37 PM »
Nice report NAF.

Good terrain and greens, just needs a little love.

A common line of thinking here, is that Ross built plenty of average courses, but I keep seeing lots of hidden gems.
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

NAF

Re:A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2005, 12:13:51 PM »
Paul-

It has gotten some love..

Every bunker on that course has been redone. And they look much better than the previous evolution as well.. And you stink amigo for not being able to do what we emailed about!

Right now the love they need is their irrigation issues to get sorted..

« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 12:14:48 PM by NAF »

Mike Sweeney

Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2008, 08:54:50 PM »
Well I played Waterbury today for the first time today and was really impressed. I personally view this as having similar potential to being an inland Eastward Ho! as the land had some great movement and variety.

They have hired a Super from Shinnecock, and in the words of our host, "he loves his chainsaw". Many many trees have come down this winter with reports of more to come. The course has been lengthened on a number of holes, and with a combination of a few days of rain and early season conditioning, it was too long for me from the back on this "short" course. I played very poorly and still really liked the course.

Great example of of how Ross (who was on-site according to the member) uses the land was #18. After a poor driving day, I decide to hit my 3 wood to get a ball in play. I hit right into the hill on the tee shot and had little roll and left myself with 200+ on this 440 yard hole. My host was at least 30 yards past me on our best drivers. On 18 he hit it on the button catches the top of the hill with a draw and literally outdrove me by 100 yards.

If you like Par 5's there is only one and it is very reachable. Some of the long 4's play longer.

The threes had a good variety of lengths.

The greens were classic Ross with many back to front.

The terrain is rugged in the Yale style with many rock outcroppings. The routing is excellent as it is an easier walk than Yale with similar terrain.

The 4's had incredible variety and terrain and were the heart and sole of the course.

Give the new Super some time and a resonable budget, and I think this conversation moves out of Connecticut to "what are the best Ross courses". I am scheduled to go to Round Hill (CT, Travis) for the first time in 15 years or so, but based on memory, I would place CCW's potential to be higher, and I am a big Travis fan. I personally believe it has the potential to sit with Wannamoisett, The Orchards and Plainfield of the best Ross courses that I have played.

The club has a classic New England low key feel where we carried our own bags. The website has many good pictures, but now with tree removal will need to be updated. It was raining when we finished, but the back porch sits up high and looks over most of the course. If they can get some better showerheads and good bowl of soup, this one goes up very high on my personal list.

Mike Sweeney

Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 11:35:36 AM »
Here is how it played in a State competition yesterday:

http://www.csgalinks.org/tournaments/2008/Palmer%20Cup/Championship/5th%20Russell%20Palmer%20Cup%20Championship%20Round%201%20Results.pdf

I think The Raters may be missing this one.......

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 12:00:10 PM »
Mike,
One of our young members who played(t32) in the Palmer Cup yesterday said the weather was pretty tough on them: windy, some rain, cold.

I was over in Claverack (northern Dutchess County), NY, yesterday picking up some parts and it was snowing.  :o
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil Benedict

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Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 12:02:51 PM »
Mike,
One of our young members who played(t32) in the Palmer Cup yesterday said the weather was pretty tough on them: windy, some rain, cold.

I was over in Claverack (northern Dutchess County), NY, yesterday picking up some parts and it was snowing.  :o

I think we should all be grateful that it's so warm in March!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 12:09:49 PM »
Phil,
I can't wait for May!!!!
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil Benedict

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Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2008, 12:14:57 PM »
Phil,
I can't wait for May!!!!

It's gonna be beautiful.  With spring coming so early this year May will feel like July.

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 06:17:12 PM »
I've always thought this course be highly overrated. I've played it a few times and caddied there for, I think, the Conn. Am qualifier. I didn't find the green complexes to be that interesting and many of the holes are rather boring off the tee. The club was smart enough, however, to bring in Brian Silva to exorcise the Steven Kay bunkers.

Anthony



mark chalfant

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Re: A visit to Country Club of Waterbury (Ross, 1927) Connecticut
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 07:34:28 PM »
I think  Ross got a lot out  of this very rocky and rugged piece of land. i especially like the variety of  short and long par fours. Also the streches  from  1-7 and 10-13 !!  are both scenic and very fun to play.

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