The Best "Dunes" is in Kansas, not Oregon!

[CHrisB]

Don't get me wrong... Pacific Dunes is one of my very favorite places to play golf anywhere in the world, but after playing each one several times now, I think Prairie Dunes is a better golf course.

I think it has an equally good routing, equally good bunkering, a better set of greens (every pin is a good pin!), a better set of par 3's (believe it or not), and more interesting fariway contours. The par 5's are probably a push (I like #17 at Prairie as much as I like #18 at Pacific), but I think Prairie has more great par 4's (I'll take #1, 8, 9, 13 and 16 at Prairie over #2, 4, 7, 13 and 16 at Pacific).

The "weakness" of Prairie Dunes would probably be the fact that it is primarily a championship course, and therefore not necessarily playable by all classes of players (I'd imagine it would be a tough place to learn the game, but the same could be said for Pine Valley). In fact, the high stuff growing on the dunes is so thick right now that there is little chance of playing a shot from it (but that's more of a maintenance issue than an architecture issue for me).

I'd also say that day in and day out, the turf conditions and speed of the course are probably better at Pacific Dunes (though currently they are just about ideal at Prairie Dunes).

If I do a match play between the two, it goes:
1. Prairie; Prairie 1 up
2. Prairie; Prairie 2 up
3. Pacific; Prairie 1 up
4. Pacific; AS
5. Pacific; Pacific 1 up
6. Prairie; AS
7. Pacific; Pacific 1 up
8. Prairie; AS
9. Prairie; Prairie 1 up
10. Prairie; Prairie 2 up
11. Pacific; Prairie 1 up
12. Prairie; Prairie 2 up
13. Pacific (barely); Prairie 1 up
14. Pacific; AS
15. Prairie; Prairie 1 up
16. Prairie (barely); Prairie 2 up
17. Prairie; Prairie 3 up
18. Pacific; Prairie 2 up

Again, it's very close between the two for me but right now I give Prairie Dunes the edge (although I'd probably jump at the chance to go to Bandon, Oregon again before I'd jump at the chance to go back to Hutchinson, Kansas...).

Of course, the next time I play Pacific I'll probably see something new there that tips the balance in its favor, but for now I'll go with Prairie...

Thoughts from those who have played both?

[John_Conley]

Chris:

I played Kiva Dunes today.  It's the best "Dunes" in Alabama.

(In all seriousness, I did like the course quite a bit.)

[Anthony_Nysse]

Kiva is a really good course. I don't know what the recent hurricane has done to the course, but Mike, golf course superintendent usually has the place in very good shape. He is formally of ANGC.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[John_Conley]

Anthony:

Kiva was in tremendous shape.  They've had a lot of rain here.  No roll, but the turf is doing great.

I played your course late last summer and really liked it.  You'd had a lot of rain too!

For great turf in Kiva's area, try Soldiers Creek at the Preserve in Elberta.  I was there today and the tifeagle greens were a tad better than Kiva's, the fairways (somehow) were firm and fast, and the greens were very firm.  It is owned by Woerner, the grass growing family.  Since you are a Supe you might know the name.

[Scott_Burroughs]

While I haven't played Prairie (or Barnbougle) to compare, the best Dunes I've played is Pacific.  Of the 8 Dunes courses I have played (in only 4 states), 6 of them are excellent.  Like Ron Whitten once noted, courses with Dunes in the name are usually places to seek out.

[Chris_Clouser]

I have not seen Pacific either, but from all the comments it is one of the best courses in the world by some.  Prairie Dunes should be one of the top 10 courses in the country or knocking on the door for that distinction.  But it often gets overlooked because of the rater emphasis on length equaling difficulty and major championship history.  It will be interesting to see how it jumps after hosting the Senior Open next season.  If not for the 12th hole, the course would be just about perfect.

[Lou_Duran]

I like Prairie Dunes enough that I've begun to fill out its national membership application.  Only the uncertainty of where I am going to end up in the next three or four years has prevented me from completing it.

Having said this, Prairie is not at the same level as Pacific in my book.  I do like the par 3s at Prairie very much, and it has some outstanding par 4s.  The par 5s though are a big disappointment, particularly the very straight, somewhat one-dimensional #17.

I was also disappointed with the remarkable difference between the Perry and Press holes.  The son quite clearly did not inherit the eye for detail from his father.  While the newer holes played similarly to the original nine, the lack of sophistication was very apparent.

In my opinion, Pacific is a stronger, more consistent, and prettier course.  The way it played this past May with firm greens (even in the rain), it didn't need to putt at 10' to be highly challenging.

The green complexes at Prairie are wonderful, but if the greens are slowed to 10' or less, they lose some of their teeth.  They were at 10' or so when I played there last year, and as bad a putter I am (just ask Huckaby), I managed them pretty well.

Neither course is long by modern standards, but both can hold their own when set up to be challenging.  The members at Prairie are wonderful, but I've had nothing but good luck with the playing public at Bandon (though I can't say the same for the weather).

I think that Prairie is definitely in the upper 30 or so in the classic category.  Pacific is in my top 10 in the modern, with Bandon Trails and Bandon Dunes closely on its tail.  Take out the weather, and Bandon would be my favorite one location golf destination anywhere.    

[corey miller]

Not sure where Prairie Dunes should be in the rater world but I the raters I know are a little more sophisticated than only relying on  yardage.  

The par 5's play pretty well IMO.  One will be reachable, one will not.  What makes the 17 one dimensional?  In my opinion is it is one of the great green complexes in golf.  I can't think of a more gut wrenching 50-150 yard third shot in golf.  or go for it in two and have fun making a bogey or worse after a pin high shot.

I also wish we had had more architects over the past 50 years  building the unsophisticated green complexes Perry built.  

I also won't get into what I think about greens speeds.

Lou, just don't become a homer when you are a member of the club.  I do agree, there are very nice people in Hutch.

[Lou_Duran]

Corey,

I didn't mean to suggest that Perry Maxwell's greens are not sophisticated.  They are fantastic.  Press' greens are also very good, though the hole presentation and placement of features in his part of the course are not as good as Perry's.  Do you not agree?

Perhaps 17 is a hole one respects more with repeated play.  Though, as I recall, it is a Perry hole, it did not cause much concern or notice to me from the tee.  It appeared to be a 3-shot hole for most people into a prevailing wind, with neither the first or second shots requiring all that much.  I do agree that the green complex is outstanding, but with a little punch wedge into it, I was not terribly challenged.  For a next to last hole and one of only two par 5s (I like par 5s), I would hope for more in a course of this stature.

As to green speeds, they were perfect that day, probably just a tad under 10'.  The GM and one of their best playing senior members both told me that they are generally much faster for tournaments.  I am not a big proponent of hyper-fast undulating greens.

[CHrisB]

Lou,
Next time you're up there, give the 17th another look, especially from the back left tee which creates a diagonal tee shot. I really like the fairway, which is a hogs back centered on the left side, requiring a very good tee shot to hold the fairway and have the option to go for the green. The layup area is anything but flat, which can create some issues when trying to hit the tiny target up at the green.

You're right about the greens really coming alive with a little extra speed...I played a competition there last week, and the 17th green really became severe with the increased green speed.

[Tom_Doak]

I called Ian Baker-Finch this afternoon to chat, and he told me he was on the back edge of the 17th green at Prairie Dunes, laying two!

I told him to get back to business and we'd talk tomorrow.

[Dan Bock]

I have not seen Pacific, but I have played Prairied Dunes occasionally over the last 20+ years.  All I can say is that if Pacific takes 4, 5, and 13 then I look forward to playing it.

The 17th at Prairie is most certainly not one-dimensional for the reasons that Chris gave - the diagonal tee shot from the back tee, narrowing fairway the closer you lay up, and the extremely difficult green for an approach of any distance.  The 17th is certainly reachable, but missing the green leaves an almost impossible pitch.

For those who are interested, there is a book called "Perry Maxwell's Prairie Dunes" by Mal Elliott that gives a pretty good history.

In the book it describes how the 17th used to be a longer dogleg right when the course only had the original 9-holes.

I would also mention that the conditions last week at the Trans Miss were on the soft side.  Last October for a Kansas team championship, the conditions were much firmer to the point that almost every approach from the fairway would have to land short or into a slope just to hold the green.

Prairie Dunes greens much over 10' in firm conditions would not be playable, particularly greens like #2.

I can't wait to watch the US Senior Open here.  I hope the wind is a factor (as it usually is).

[Lou_Duran]

TD,

Did he get down in two?

[CHrisB]

After thinking about it some more, I'm going to revise my statement about the fairway contours, and say it's more of a push between the two courses. I love the 1st, 2nd, 16th, and 18th fairways at Pacific, and certainly Prairie has nothing like the 9th at Pacific.

But there's also nothing quite like the 8th and 9th fairways at Prairie Dunes.

[corey miller]

Chris

Are the turf conditions and speed of course really better at PD.  That is pretty impressive.  Nothing matches the firmness that I experienced at Wild Horse.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Corey,

     I played Prairie Dunes earlier this year and it does play very fast and firm (although not like Wild Horse).  The course was in excellent shape and is absolute blast to play.  

     I'd probably split my rounds 5/5 between the two PDs.

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