PA Am at Huntingdon Valley

[JESII]

Now, I can't go naming names here but some of us have said for some years to our clubs and others that we want the type of firm and fast playability HVGC has and the answers were---"Oh yeah, and do you want fairways and such that look as ratty as theirs do?"

I never exactly noticed that except once about 2-3 years ago. I remember I was on #2 fairway and I said to myself---this really does look ratty as hell. But you know what, it doesn't matter---that fairway and the rest of the course PLAYED great despite it.

I am not so sure that 'ratty look' has to go hand in hand with the low water firm and fast conditioning Scott practices. I know for a fact we aspire to the appearance of minimal maintenance for the effect of what you describe as what Mother Nature gave us. You'll notice the fairway mowing pattern is very plain as is the bunker edging maintenance.  

These practices are in place to appeal to the knowledgeable golfer because when you are in one of our fairways I promise you have a real good piece of turf to hit from regardless of the shot or your caliber of play. They do not 'look' like Muirfield Village's fairways, but show me an 18 handicapper who can hit any shot, from a chip the three wood, off those fairways and I'll show you 5 who cannot.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I think you're right about that. Some of these courses today that have ultra immaculate super tight fairways that aren't that firm and such are the ones where less good players really do stuggle with shots---eg mostly fat but thin shots too. I played at your place on Sunday. Don't think I'd played it for maybe a year or two and the fairways were great to hit off of.

[SMay]

Guys,
I am estatic Scott Anderson, the HVCC membership and the playability of their wonderful golf course are recieving high appreciation from the GCA group.  
I had the privelage to serve as Scotts' assistant for five years and helped prepare the golf course for a few prestigeous events.  After reading your threads I am confident the golf course was outstanding - rain not withstanding - and played beautifully.
I had a conversation with Scott this morning and told him how dissapointed I was that I did not visit with him during the Am.  
HVCC is always more beautiful in the hot summer time.
Scott May

[PAW13]

TP, I have never thought HVCC looked "Ratty", but yes it never looked Augusta Green either.

Firm and fast is going to make every golf course play difficult, I know Mike McNulty would love to have firm and fast everyday at our place, but just like HVCC mother nature has not allowed it to happen as much as we would like this year.  Hopefully we will have the ideal conditions for the Amateur.  

The only course that I have played in a competition that has rivaled HVCC for firmness was Oakmont during the '03 Amateur.  As Mike McDermott, Gui Costin, Frank McFadden and I played our practice rounds we all said that if they didn't get any rain during the week that the finals could be a blood bath, and sure enough Nick Flanagan was something like 14 over for the day in winning the event.  Oakmont was probably the set up the most difficult I have faced in competition, the fairways were rolling about 8 and with all the slopes and 4 inch rough I spent most of my day pitching out on the 450 plus par 4's and hoping to get it up and down from 140.

Scott can we expect Mannies to be HVCC like in the future?

[TEPaul]

Chet:

I want to get away from this remark of mine that HVGC looked ratty. I don't really care about that if it plays firm and fast. For God's sakes, I've seen some fairways at my place look ratty too over the years, only real problem was that even with "ratty" they weren't playing firm and fast. We're getting there now though, we're going in the right direction and maintenance and the membership seem to be into it.

But in the context of this discussion I'd definitely like to find out more about what this 'significant turf loss' in the transition period is really about.

[James Bennett]

"11 inches - wow , that is impressive (I assume that it is one of the new hybrid bents, particularly given the grain comment/prior discussion."

James Bennett:

No way. Actually Scott Anderson appears not to like the idea at all of these new hybrid bents. His grass is old---it's taken them a long time to get those roots down that far. I think the bent on their greens is L93.

TE Paul and Scott

11 inches deep roots with mature L93 bent.  Wow again.  If it had been a year old new bent strain, then the deep roots could be the result of the first year run, before 'dying back' to a more stable depth.  No chance of that temporary depth advantadge with an older bent.


By the way, I was at Royal Adelaide for lunch today, and enjoyed a sunny middle of winter day of 18 degrees (about 68 farenheit).   I viewed the historic maps on the wall of their library of four course layouts :
1 A Dan Soutar 1906 proposal (not implemented)
2 An HL Rymill 1906 proposal (implemented)
3 A 1917 version of the actual course following the Rymill Plan
4 The 1926 MacKenzie plan, much (but not all) of which was implemented.

Also in the room was the picture of MacKenzie in his kilt, numerous course photos including aerials from 50 years ago and large shots of memorable holes from 50 and 100 years ago.  You could really spend some time in there.

[TEPaul]

"TE Paul and Scott
11 inches deep roots with mature L93 bent.  Wow again.  If it had been a year old new bent strain, then the deep roots could be the result of the first year run, before 'dying back' to a more stable depth.  No chance of that temporary depth advantadge with an older bent."

James:

I think they have L93 but I'm not certain. I think I remember hearing that from Scott or Linc Roden a few years ago but we may've been on the "C" nine. I'd assume they use the same grass throughout the 27 holes but perhaps not. I certainly can call and ask if you'd like.

That's interesting what you say about new roots going deep and then dying back. I've never heard that before but my understanding of agronomy still has a long long way to go.

Golf agronomy today is or certainly seems complex---but perhaps that fact is one of the keys to the unusual practices in this day and age that HVGC and Scott Anderson have developed over the year---eg attempting to get back to a more commonsensical "Nature's Way" sort of process!

If one looks carefully at the evolution of golf agronomy, particularly in this country it seems quite evident that the industry and science of golf's agronomy has become one of constant hybridization and in a sense constant remediation because of that. It seems to have gotten farther and farther from "Nature's Way".

Why would it do that? That's a good question but one thing seems undeniable---there is a lot of money to be spent and made in constant remediation (fertilizers, growth regulators, chemicals etc).

It's not cheap to live in the "Emergency Ward".  

[JESII]

I cannot confirm L93 or any other specific grass, but I am certain that it is an old grass. I almost want to say penncross but again am not sure. It would be easy to find out.

[TEPaul]

One thing I can say is Scott Anderson does not seem to be a fan of these new so-called super strains like "A" and "G", at least not unless he completely changed his mind in the last two days.  

[JESII]

One thing I can say is Scott Anderson does not seem to be a fan of these new so-called super strains like "A" and "G", at least not unless he completely changed his mind in the last two days.  

Any idea why that is Tom?

[TEPaul]

I don't know. But if I were to guess I might say a guy like Scott Anderson was sort of born too late, if you know what I mean.

He just seems to like old stuff---older methods, an old roller, an old single line irrigation system he likes and apparently has sort of jury-rigged, older grass, older playabilities, just older stuff that isn't the "fad of the month".

But Wayne talked to him about the new "A" or "G" strains, not me, and Wayne said he doesn't like it. I don't know why since obviously he probably hasn't used it or worked with it.

I'm sort of fascinated by the new strains though. Those who are using it say it has some marked benefits. There may be some drawbacks they'll find in the years to come though. Who knows? Mike McNulty at PCC did remark to us last winter that after 4 or so years with the "A" strain the honeymoon is over. I haven't been able to ask him yet what he means but I'm sure going to soon.

[JESII]

I wonder if it has anything to do with his (and Linc's as well) passion and belief in grain in the greens. I know some of these courses with one of the new grasses talk about grain, but I never see anything like what we've got at HVCC, at least north of the Mason-Dixon that is.

If you speak to him soon, ask about the "witches brew" he cooked up over the weekend to apply to the greens to reduce the stress of grooming and prepping for the PA Am. He sat down with my father and I on Monday and we asked how things were going from his perspective and he gave great answers. I hope he really does reveal all (or at least some of)of his secrets in his upcoming interview with Ran.

[Micah Woods]

Most superintendents will have read the article about the maintenance practices at Huntingdon Valley from the May 1999 issue of "Golf Course Management". In that article, it said that penncross is used for overseeding, and that seaside (another creeping bent variety) was tried but did not establish. L-93 is of roughly the same era as the A and G bents. An interview with Scott Anderson will be very interesting to read, and I look forward to it.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

There seems little question that the "A" strain can have plenty of playable grain if it's not veriticut regularly. This was certainly a lot of the talk with the players at the PA Better Ball Championship at White Manor this year and certainly at the Philly Open at PCC last year.

Yeah, Witch's Brew or whatever. I'll leave things like that to Scott to talk about. Wayne said he was talking about something like volcanic rock and energy fields or something. Then he showed up as we were talking about that and I asked him if he ate the volcanic rock or put it on the golf course.  

His seemingly unique ideas about what to use in topdressing may be something that gets real notice. He gets the stuff from a company out of Kennett Square---the mushroom capital of the world. Every now and then a truck from the mushroom industry in Kennett Square comes to my farm and loads about six months worth of horse shit and straw on the truck and takes it down to the mushrooms of Kennett. So maybe one of the keys to HVGC is the decomposed straw and horseshit from my farm.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I don't know what Scott is doing but I can attest that it works great from a playability standpoint.

HVGC is my favorite Flynn course in the area, probably as much for the maintenance as the architecture.  I played there about two years ago with a pro who is also a Golf Digest rater.  After putting out on 18, he said to me, "Tell me why this course is not in the Top 100?"

I resisted the urge to tell him that it is Top 100 on the real ranking system and instead said that perhaps it loses points due to card yardage the Golf Digest "Test of Golf" criteria, which it probably does and as anyone who knows, is really an ironic joke.

[TEPaul]

" After putting out on 18, he said to me, "Tell me why this course is not in the Top 100?"

That's easy. Golf Digest and it's panel and editors shouldn't be doing stuff like that. If they want to rate courses they should pay some guy like Brad Klein about $100 grand per year plus expenses and get him to go out there and do the top 100 himself. He could write a comprehensive article on each on what he thought and why. It'd be whole lot more educational than looking at a bunch of numbers on a list.

I don't care what anyone says, rating the top 100 courses just in numerical order is for the birds and it always will be.

[PAW13]

TP

I couldn't agree more about the Top 100 rankings.

I veiw it as strictly political.  How else can you explain the drastic movement of courses like Shadow Creek and Aronimink to name a few over the last ten years.

There are plenty of courses that belong in the top 100 that are not and there a few that are in that have no right in my mind.

[JESII]

Hey Chet

I bet Mark McNulty (I believe that is the name of your superintendent at PCC) is happy with this weather these last two days. All of us here in Philly that love those two courses (PCC and Merion) are really hoping the weather cooperates and allow the courses to shine.

Are congratulations in order yet?

[PAW13]

Sully

Not yet still waiting, it looks like it could be a close call on Monday Morning with my US AM tee time at 12:50 PM.

Mike McNulty I am sure is very happy with this weather.  I know on Sunday afternoon when I went to PCC to practice the putting green was HVCC firm, and all I could think about was how HVCC was going to be the next day.

I think everyone in the area wants weather like this for the AM, it would make the medal play rounds very interesting.

Of course the hard part if just getting there.

[JESII]

Good luck on all counts!

[James Bennett]

TEPaul

'That's interesting what you say about new roots going deep and then dying back. I've never heard that before but my understanding of agronomy still has a long long way to go.'

My experience is limited in this area to a small number of greens.  However, when these greens were first sown, we had very deep roots down through the sand profile (USGA style of green) to over 200mm, or 8 inches).  Then, when the green has gone into play, and the irrigation/maintenance regime is aimed at providing a surface, some of the lower roots are lost.  I am sure some of this is due to the soil characteristics, and the ability to drain in winter whilst retaining water in the sub-soil in summer during our droughts.  I expect any drying out of the lower strata of soil will lead to the loss of the deeper roots.  Thats why I am impressed with the deep root growth with infrequent watering.


'But Wayne talked to him about the new "A" or "G" strains, not me, and Wayne said he doesn't like it. I don't know why since obviously he probably hasn't used it or worked with it.'

I've discussed this matter with our course supt, and with several others in Melbourne.  There will always be a 'new, best and latest' turf-type.  Its like computers, and TV's, and cars.  There will always be a new product.  But some courses have worked out that their existing greens are just fine.  

I've seen good courses in Melbourne where the greens turf is still the that from 50 years ago when the course was built (brown top and poa, and this is used vegetatively to establish any new nurseries).  I guess St Andrews is the prime example of this.

Royal Melbourne is an example where probably 15 years ago theyd ecided to replace the greens with a more modern grass type (?was it penncross) and disliked the playing style that eventuated (the 'maintenance meld' was changed).  So, they went back in history, back to the original sutton's mix, and back to the way the course played.

At Kingston Heath, they are succesfully replacing their Egmont greens with A1 (I think the program is nearly complete).  I understand that maintaining Egmont in summertime was a significant problem, hence the change to A1.

However, other courses (eg Metropolitan) continue to use older but somewhat modern varieties such as Dominant.  Our club uses mostly this mix, plus some poa of course.

[TEPaul]

James:

As far as roots going deep early and then dying back later, again, I can't imagine why that would be except perhaps for a very commonsensical reason. Grass roots to some degree (obviously depending on the particular strain of grass to a degree) simply seek water and if that water is perched deep the roots will go deep if they can get through the soil easily enough. Apparently roots can get through the soil easily enough if water can get through the soil easily enough. It seems to me roots will go deep if the medium between the crown and the bottom of the roots is kept relatively dry. If that medium just below the surface is not kept relatively dry---if it's over-irrigated there is no real reason for roots to go deep to seek water.

We switched to A-4 for a particular reason---eg to help prevent anthracnose for the foreseeable future (perhaps 5-10 years). The "A" and "G" strains are very dense (more leaves per square inch) and the thinking is a dense grass will keep out poa longer. Anthraconose primarily attacks poa. But we've found that the "A" strain basically loves dryness and consequently the stress levels of maintaining firm and fast greens is markedly minimized compared to what we used to have which was multi-strain bents and poa.

[Craig Sweet]

TEPAUL..."Grass roots to some degree (obviously depending on the particular strain of grass to a degree) simply seek water and if that water is perched deep the roots will go deep if they can get through the soil easily enough."

Yes and no...roots will often be a reflection of the blades of grass above ground. In other words, short grass, short roots, tall grass, long roots....

So, there are many factors that will determine the lenght of the roots. Irrigation/water practices are but one.

[TEPaul]

"Yes and no...roots will often be a reflection of the blades of grass above ground. In other words, short grass, short roots, tall grass, long roots...."

Craig:

Good point, and that's obviously a very good reason the dedicated cultivation of "grain" (longer leafs on top) on the greens of HVGC is responsible for their deeper rooted (and very durable) agronomy.

It's just so interesting that HVGC's retro maintenance practices (organic, minimal water, grain in the greens promoting deeper roots and healthier more durable agronomy) is telling somewhat of a story of where modern golf agronomy has gone in the last century.

Man, the golfer, came to not like "grain" in the green, perhaps because he viewed it as too unpredicatable and unfair in play. So he went on a decades-long campaign to get rid of it.

But did that jibe with "Nature's Way"? Not at all. The more I think about it the more I realize how much of golf's modern agronomy in this country particularly really is akin to a sophisticated "emergency ward" of constant remediation, simply because it's so artifical in Nature's medium.

[Craig Sweet]

I don't think there was a conserted effort to eliminate grain. I think it just sort of happened as equipment improved allowing lower cutting heights One "benefit" (or casulty) of the lower heights was the near elimination of grain. The new Bents are so ridged and upright that they can be allowed to get a little long with no noticible grain.