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DMoriarty

Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« on: July 26, 2005, 09:32:33 PM »
While it is still a little rough around the edges, Rustic Canyon is back from its third natural disaster  (or maybe it's the fourth . . . who's keeping score?)  Nearly all the changes and fixes are in place, and all 18 holes have been open since the beginning of July.   Since I've played the course a few times since then, I thought I'd go through the changes/fixes, for those interested.  

General Comments:

--  The management wisely brought Gil Hanse and Jim Wagner back to make the repairs, and the result is that the repairs are still within the character of the original.  Jeff Hicks (the super) and his crew were also very involved in the project, while at the same time trying to keep the rest of the course running smoothly.   My congratulations to all of the above for all a job well done.  

--  The flash floods created a bit of a new look at Rustic.   What was a tiny channel is now quite wide and deep, so now some of the crossings are a bit more dramatic.  There is also quite a bit more native sand showing, which in my opinion looks pretty good.

--  One big improvement throughout all the fixes--  No cart paths were repaired/replaced.  Instead, dirt "wagon trails" were built, and located well out of the way.  In my opinion this creates a much improved, less interrupted, more natural look.  

--  Will the changes withstand another 100 year flood?  Who knows.  At the very least, the odd's have been greatly improved.  

Specific Changes.

No. 3.   This hole was not damaged, but Gil and Jim took the opportunity to add a few more bunkers just left of the existing bunker right of the green.   Makes the drive for the green a little tighter and more intimidating, and makes visibility from the right fairway a little more difficult.   They also added a small mound on the apron, between the new bunkers and the green.

New Bunkers on Three


No. 4.  This hole looks very different but that old No. 4 might just be hiding in there somewhere, just like she was under the multiple feet of silt that covered her.  The green contours are pretty much the same, with a few slight variations which may only be noticable to the locals.  The big changes:  A large bunker has the small bunkers back left; a cross mound with bunkers was added where the path used to cross, just before the ground starts to drop into the bowl at the front of the green; The area short and right of the hole has been expanded and recountoured so that a brave golfer can draw a running shot over the cross bunkers, through the bowl, over the mound all the way to the back left pin placement; and, The previously unplayable waste area right has been cleaned up and is now a playable waste bunker.

The result of all these changes is that the hole is more visually striking.   One definitely sees the bunker trouble left.  One cannot see the entire front of the green, and can only see the top half the flagstick on front pins.   As far as playability, the golfer who plans to run the ball in (a very popular shot on this hole) will have to be much more precise, clearing the bunker and still catching the downslope of the bowl in front of the green.

From the Tee


Cross-bunker, with the Brad Klein Estates in the background.


No. 5.  The old new back tee is no longer but has been replaced with a tee pressed all the way back against the fence, probably adding 30-40 yards to the back tee yardage.  The tee is offset from the blue box, and lines the golfer up with the far left corner of the fairway.  The right side of the landing area-- which gives the best angle to the green-- is not visible from this tee.  The first fairway has been regrassed and slightly recountoured, and the cart path has been removed, and the native will be allowed to grow in here and there on the right, so that eventually the right side of the fairway should naturally bleed into the native.  

The wash is in approximately the same location, but is much cleaner now, with mostly bare sand.  

No. 5 From the Tee


No. 6.  The green is pretty close to the way it was.  The swale is not as deep and seems a little wider, so it may play just a little gentler than before.  It is still a big swale, though, and still pretty unique.   A secondary channel now cuts across the hole in front of the red tee box for drainage purposes, but should really be in play.  

The main difference on this hole is how it looks.  On the one hand, the channel has grown, and this allows a better look at the green.  On the other, hittting over all that bare sand is a little intimidating.  

No. 6 from the Blue Tees (note wooden bridge in the bottom of the picture, marking the line and width of the old wash.)


No. 6 from the Blacks..


No. 7.  

I dont have time to talk about it right now, but I'll post three pictures of the approach, with the arrows pointing to the pin on No. 7 and the pin on No. 8 in the background.  

No. 7 Approach from Right Side of Fairway, about 170 yds out.


No 7 Approach from Middle of Fairway, about 140 yards out.


No. 7 Approach from Left Side of Fairway, about 70 yards out.  


More later if anyone's interested.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 09:51:22 PM by DMoriarty »

corey miller

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Re:Whatsupdate at RC
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2005, 09:53:29 PM »


David

Thanks for the pictures and for the info.  Are you saying that all the hole changes (except #3) were the result of fixing the storm damage?  

Glad it is back in play and I look froward to playing it again.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2005, 10:23:11 PM »
Dave,

Is the amount of play back to normal ?

T_MacWood

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2005, 10:31:06 PM »
David
It appears they have tried to make the best of a negative by embracing some interesting features Mother Nature left behind. The last few pictures of the 7th remind me a little of old photos of Wilshire.

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at RC
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2005, 01:07:16 AM »
David

Thanks for the pictures and for the info.  Are you saying that all the hole changes (except #3) were the result of fixing the storm damage?  

Glad it is back in play and I look froward to playing it again.

Cory,
I think the only major work not related to the storm was on No. 3.  Nos. 4, 5, and 6 are exactly where they were before, with the exception of the back tee on No. 5, as mentioned above.   As far as the routing or footprint of the hole, No. 7 is the most significantly changed, as I will describe below.

Patrick,
Not sure about the actual amount of play, but I've heard the clubhouse guys are saying that they have been slammed on the weekends-- something like 250-270 golfers a day, which has got to be close to capacity.   I've been out there a few times during the week and it has been mixed.  I'd guess the weekday business will lag a little for a while.  

Tom,  
I've seen some old pictures of Wilshire and I know what you mean.  But unlike some of the best stuff I've seen from old Wilshire, the bunker in the last few photos is man made-- part of a very large bunker which extends from edge of the green pretty much into the natural wash.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 01:07:59 AM by DMoriarty »

Mike Benham

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Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2005, 01:11:20 AM »
David -

Thanks for the photos ... what was the reasoning for the cross bunkers on #4?  

Was it in part to build a channel for future winter water flows, or as a dam to prevent or divert water flow?

And, assuming you have played the hole, how does it play with the cross bunkers?  Visually, it must play with your mind a little, thinking that the bunkers eliminate the short approach and run ...

Mike



"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2005, 01:33:24 AM »
Mike, I dont think that the cross bunkers on No.4 were directly related to flood control.  If the water ever came that direction, it would flow on the green side of those bunkers, so they wouldnt be protecting much.  One flood connection; they were probably built with some of the huge mass of sand and silt which had to be  cleared out of the bowl in front of the green.

As for how it plays, it definitely messes with your mind.  For one it makes the hole seem shorter and downhill, even though the hole usually plays longer.  Also, you cant really see the front third of the green.  Some days the entire flag will be visible, some days only the top third.  And yes it is much harder to commit to the run up shot, but it seems there is still enough room to do it.  

Of all the changes this is definitely the most discussed feature among those who new it before and have played it so far, and in my opinion it raises some really interesting issues.   I am holding off into getting into that sort of thing for the time being.  At least until more have seen the course with changes.

I will say that I have played with a few well-traveled golfers who were playing Rustic for the first time, and they couldnt stop raving about the hole.  They absolutely loved it.  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 01:33:43 AM by DMoriarty »

Allan Long

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Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2005, 08:54:56 AM »
David,

A few months ago you had talked about possible changes to
#11. With Gil and Jim coming in to make repairs, was anything done to #11?
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

RJ_Daley

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Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2005, 10:59:05 AM »
David, thanks for the update and insight.  It seems that the changes may have put more "rustic" into Rustic Canyon.  Is that a fair assesment?  

The hole-by-hole on the greenkeeper website seems up to date with the remodelling efforts.

http://www.greenskeeper.org/golf_courses/scorecard.cfm?course=139&altcourse=1#tips

I take it you are going to continue to go with your hole by hole, and will appreciate pictures of what is new or altered by the washdowns.  The above doesn't talk about any alterations by the washouts to the new cross bunkering on 10 nor any change in teeboxes or angle on 14 (if any of note were required).
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2005, 01:33:01 PM »
Thanx David for the images and the report.

Quote
They also added a small mound on the apron, between the new bunkers and the green.


Now that explains alot.

I spoke with Tommy about this feature back in May,
when he was on the right coast. It must've just been built.
He didn't seem to know what I was talking about, and this
now explains it. Thanx.

I thought the little mound was a perfect feature.
Not knowing it was a new feature, just thinking it had
recently been re-sodded. I had taken the right line and knew
 instinctively that there was room betwixx the bunker and
 green, I aimed right for her. The blind mound will add just a
touch of unpredictability to any ball played on her.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 01:33:55 PM by Adam Clayman »

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2005, 05:43:19 PM »
Allan, Dick, and Adam,

I will continue through the changes shortly.  Dick, I am not so sure that the info on the link is current.  The new bunkers were there on No. 3, but some of the rest of the information doesnt sound quite correct.  

Adam,  Not sure why Tommy was confused about that feature, it was built quite a while a go and I am pretty sure I discussed it with him before May.   As you probably recall, the hump is pretty small, but once it gets you (as happened in your case) you tend to remember it.  Maybe Tommy has blocked it out of his mind so it wont mess with him on any shot from the right.

Allan, nice to see your post.  I'll get to the change, but you really ought to come see for yourself.  

Thank you, DaveM, for espousing the merits of the addition of bunkers in the direct line of play to the green.... ;)

Shivas, I am sure there is supposed to be some sort of pointed and humorous message is this quip, but I have no idea what that might be.  I have never taken a draconian stance against the use of centerline features, generally.  Far from it, I have often praised them.  As I just noted yesterday on the "Centerline" thread, Rustic has plenty of trouble directly between the tee and green, and for the most part I think it works well.  

Ahhh, I just figured it out.  You trying to contrast my opposition to your nonstarter pot-bunker proposal for TOC 18 on the one hand, with my comments on the addition of the cross-bunker to the flood damaged 170 yd par three at Rustic, on the other.   A tenuous comparison, even for you.  Ever notice how broad your brush when you try to paint hypocracy or inconsistency in others?  Ironic.  

For the record, you may want to reread my response to Mike, the Ace, above.  Far from "espousing the merits" of the change, I explicitly refrained from getting into the interesting issues raised by the addition of the cross bunker.  
« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 05:45:53 PM by DMoriarty »

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2005, 07:23:19 PM »
Continuing on with the description.

Hole 7.   This is the one hole which where the footprint is different.   There are substantial changes and writing them out may be too confusing but I will try.
-- The tees are in the same place, but the white tee area has been widened (come to think if it, this is a change which was not really a result of the flood because this tee box wasnt damaged.)  Also, a shorter red tee was added.  
--The green has been moved back about 30 or 40 yards, and is now closer to the eighth green.  it also sits up quite a bit higher than the other green, and has a huge bunker right in front of it, another bunker off the front right, and a small and deep bunker right.  
--The green itself is very large, wider than it is deep.  There is a swale which runs through the green vertically, and extended apron in the front and right.  As you can see in the pictures, the ground slopes down from the green on all sides.  
-- The old right fairway is still there, but it doesnt begin until closer to the green.  It will take a very large drive to reach the right fairway now.  
-- The first fairway has been changed quite a bit, although some of you might think you are looking at approximately the same thing.  Most notably, the fairway continues quite for quite a bit further and to the left of where it used to, maybe as much as 100 yards further.    
-- So, while one must still lay up with a long iron or fairwood to avoid going through the fairway and into the wash on the right side of the fairway, all but the very longest hitters can driver down the left side to get close to (and left of) the green, if they so choose.  But the drive left will be partially blind (over a ridge of the canyon) and will have to carry a nifty new secondary wash which feeds out of one of the side canyons, runs down the left side of the fairway, and then crosses both No. 7 and No. 6 in front of their white tees.  
--  The fairway itself has been recontoured to drain better, and the whole thing sits quite a bit higher than it did before, at least near the canyon wallso hopefully the water will run around it rather than through it.  There was a small fairway swale running straight across the landing area.  Now there is a more pronounced fairway swale which meanders a bit, so if one plays safe to the middle of the new fairway, one might well end up with a very uneven lie.  

In sum, there are now three or for options off the tee.  
--First, he longest hitters can still try to hit the right fairway, but this is much more difficult shot than before.  
--Second, one can also hit down the right side, flirting with the wash right and long, and leaving a longer approach to the tricky green.  
--Third, one can pound a driver down the left side to approach the green from the far left side, with as little as seventy yards to the center of the green.  
--Fourth, one can do something in between option Two and Three leaving a shot directly over the huge bunker and risking an uneven lie.  

At least that's the idea, I think.   As far as what works from where is complicated by the width of the green, the swale through the green, the large bunker in front, the fact that one cannot see the green surface except in the very front right (which may or may not be false when the greens get up to speed.)

The pics above with the arrows show just how drastically different the approach will be from different points on the fairway.  They dont include a picture from the optional right fairway, which will probably give the best angle at least some of the pins.  

It was fascinating watching this thing be built, and it will very very interesting to hear what people think once they have played it ten or twelve times.

Some More Pics

From the front of the red tee (new), showing all the room to drive left and the new (and still not quite finished, I think) waste area/ wash.


Another shot of the first fairway.


Another shot of the big bunker which sort of bleeds into the wash.  


The seventh green from the bunker near the right front corner.


The seventh green from the eighth tee.



DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2005, 07:28:59 PM »
Whatever.  3 paragraphs in defense of a quip?  Methinks thou doth protest too much... ;)

"Whatever" to you, as well.  I probably do protest too much,  but after the absurd Minimalist thread (your comments included) and after your comments on the TOC 18 thread about my views,  I think I have probably just had enough of you and others making cute little quips about other posters' supposed inconsistencies and hypocracies without any basis whatsoever, and without any intention of explaining, discussing, or defending their quips.  

For once I'd like to see more people erring more on the side of full, honest, and open discussion as opposed to throwing out trite quips.  

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2005, 01:20:48 AM »
To Continue . . .

No. 8, the bunkers between tee and green complex were reshaped, but the meat of the hole remains exactly the same.

No. 9,  The tee area was completely covered with silt.  New tees were built closer to the wash (further left) so the angle is a little different.  The back tee is probably 10-15 yards further back than the previous one.  Other than that it is the same old boring par 5. ::)

No. 10 was untouched by the raging waters and is unchanged.  

No. 11, the main change is the big bite taken out of the fairway starting about 135 yards from the green.  Jim Wagner worked with the erosion to make some waste bunkers, and they will connect to the existing waste bunkers along the edge of the wash.  For now they are playing off the native sand.  The photo below shows the bunkers in construction.  The edge of the bunker away from the green is actually pretty deep, probably at least 6 feet.  There are around 25 yards of fairway right of the bunker, but it doesnt look like that much.



Hole 14.  The tee with the blue marker was damaged but is now back open.  The black tee has not been rebuilt yet but I assume it will be.  The drive looks more dramatic because it is now over a huge sand wash instead of over vegitation.  

Hole 18.  A bite similar to the one on 11 was taken out of the last fairway, beginning around 185 from the green.  This bite was quite a bit deeper, and has also been turned into waste bunker which will connect into already existing waste bunker.  This bunker may be reachable from the tee if the big hitter cuts too much off the corner.  But again there is plenty of fairway to the left, between the bite and the fairway bunkers.  

Sorry I dont have many pics of the back.  
________________

While it is nice to have the all 18 holes back open, I will definitely miss the 15 hole version, with fewer crowds, quicker rounds, and some terrific golf.  
« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 02:00:33 AM by DMoriarty »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2005, 01:37:37 AM »

No. 9 ... Other than that it is the same old boring par 5.


I want to disagree with that comment, I hope you were smiling when you typed it out ... maybe not a hard par-5 but a simple birdie it is not, in fact with that green and hole location, a 2-putt par could be a good score ...
"... and I liked the guy ..."

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2005, 01:57:49 AM »

No. 9 ... Other than that it is the same old boring par 5.


I want to disagree with that comment, I hope you were smiling when you typed it out ... maybe not a hard par-5 but a simple birdie it is not, in fact with that green and hole location, a 2-putt par could be a good score ...

Yes I was smiling when I wrote it, or at least rolling my eyes.  I'll go back and add the emoticon just for you.  

I've got to say, though, while the contruction was going on this hole was sure a fun "par 4."  Something like 430 but playing more like 470, a two putt par was excellent.  Play it from the white tees and we have found one of the the holes the USGA will call a par 4 when the hold a championship at Rustic.   (Again I am rolling my eyes, but just cant stand to push the little yellow button.)

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2005, 02:41:22 AM »
David,

Well, once the changes take hold and the grass matures, will the golf course be better overall than when it was built?

#9 as a long par 4 has some appeal.  It would differentiate it from #10 (as I recall, the two had some similarities).

With the fires and floods, how long will it take for the natives to get tall and thick?  It probably will depend on the amount of rain, but I think that playability would improve if they kept the areas closely around the course tall and whispy, but fairly thin.  How about the environmental fence on the west side of the property, I think mainly in the front nine?  Is it gone?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2005, 03:08:50 AM »
Adam,
Your confused.
 
I saw that mound being built.


Allan Long

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2005, 09:09:40 AM »
David,

My next trip out, you know that will be my first stop. Sorry I missed you in December.

I'm sure you have had a chance to talk with Gil, Geoff and Jim about the direction that course has taken. What is their take? Do they consider this a natural evolution that will only strengthen the course? Or, do they consider they lost some great work they can never get back.
I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2005, 10:18:19 AM »
If Jim Wagner, Gill or Geoff see this, I would like to know if the previous wash vegitation served to slow down or absorb some of the minor rain washes, and now with the wash areas so clean and sandy, will minor rain washes tend to flow swifter and lead to more destruction or biting into the fairway erosion.  If so, then could one assume that major wash downs would seem to be even more dangerous to eroding more fairway, ultimately leading to too much loss of such, and catastrophic damage to the in play areas?

To speak frankly, does the architect and construction team believe that there could be a better fix to the long term problem of further erosion, but perhaps are restrained by environmental regulation of just what scope of work they can do to alter or engineer the water course-channel, due to budget or regulation?  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

DMoriarty

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2005, 01:10:42 PM »
Well, once the changes take hold and the grass matures, will the golf course be better overall than when it was built?

I dont know, Lou.  Not sure I am qualified to speculate.  I'll have to wait for the experts' opinions.

Quote
#9 as a long par 4 has some appeal.  It would differentiate it from #10 (as I recall, the two had some similarities).

I've never quite understood what the similarities were, except they were both long wide holes that faced the same direction.  Calling one a par 4 wouldnt change this similarity much, I dont think.  

Quote
With the fires and floods, how long will it take for the natives to get tall and thick?  It probably will depend on the amount of rain, but I think that playability would improve if they kept the areas closely around the course tall and whispy, but fairly thin.  How about the environmental fence on the west side of the property, I think mainly in the front nine?  Is it gone?

Most of the fences on the property were to keep people out of the native after the fire.  Some of them are still there (they dont need to be, the management just hasnt had them removed.)  Most of them are located in places where you most likely dont want to go anyway.  

Not sure what natives you are referring to, so I cant really answer the rest of your question.   I will say that there is not much chance that many of the true natives will ever be "whispy."
_____________

Andy, I have talked to Gil and Jim and I think they are very happy with what they have accomplished.   I know that they still think there needs to be some touch-ups here and there (grow in, sand in bunkers, etc.) but I think they are very happy with what they've done.  As for whether they lost great work that they can never get back, I think they managed to save, preserve or rebuild everything that they wanted to, and then added from there.
____________________________


Shivas said:
Quote
From the Minimalism thread:

"...there is quite a bit sounds like grade school whining to me . . .

"Why is Everybody Picking On Me?" ... We are supposed to be a participants in discussion group about golf course architecture.  More specifically, an exploration of "key tenets" of gca which "have stood the test of time," in an attempt to understand "why some courses are more fascinating than others, and [] why such courses continually beckon for a return game."  Lofty goals, and impossible to approach even if we feel free to view each others words critically, and to test and challenge each others'  ideas, opinions, and observations.  

Yet more and more participants chafe at the first sign of criticism.  

So, Dave, in this context, all I'm doing is helping you approach the lofty goal of understanding why some courses are more fascinating than others.  I hope you'll take your own advice and save the chafing for days when you play 36 in 100 degree heat where it's unavoidable in the absence of 3-4 teaspoons of baby powder pre-applied to the backside.  

Shivas,  I welcome your criticism of my comments and ideas.  When you put have your mind to it, your critical analysis has been quite good and has taught me a few things.  

It would be nice though if you were willing to substantively stand by, defend, and discuss your criticisms, instead of just tossing out shallow, meaningless quips, then heading to the next thread.  In case you didnt get through it, my post on the other thread called for more critical discussion, not less.   But it called for "discussion," not just thin, broad-bush implication and innuendo, like your quip above about the bunker on No. 4.

If you've got a point to make, make it and support it, and we will see if it holds up to others' critique.  Throwing out baseless innuendo of hypocracy then refusing to defend like Cary or Matt is beneath you, frankly.  

But thanks for dropping by and polluting this thread!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 01:13:19 PM by DMoriarty »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2005, 01:16:33 PM »
Adam,
Your confused.
 
I saw that mound being built.



Tom, Well I sure had a hard time trying to convey, over the phone, what I was talking to you about, less than five minutes after I had played it.

Plus, It's more of a pimple, than a mound.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2005, 02:41:56 PM »
Adam,
When you called, you were describing it as a mound. I remarked to you that the only mound out there was the Principal's Nose that had been added, and then said to you that you must have meant the  small shape (which you said was dead or dying) that had been installed back left of it between it and the green. We clarified that, remember?

Anyway, I felt that you conveying what I thought of it to David in that post was totally misrepresentative of what you and I were discussing, and completely misrepresentitive of what I think of it. I know you wouldn't have done this intentionally, hence, "your confused."




Mike_Cirba

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2005, 02:50:38 PM »
I have to agree with Shivas about the 4th.

One of the beautiful things about it before is that it "looked" easy and it was only after it bit you that you realized that such an innocuous looking hole had such sharp teeth.

Now, it looks like just another par three with cool looking bunkers, but it had unique qualities before.



Now, THAT's what I call minimalism!!

This, despite a look we love, is clearly not.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 02:57:01 PM by Mike Cirba »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Whatsupdate at Rustic Canyon
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2005, 02:56:01 PM »
Mike, I haven't played the new 4th, but I agree.

The old 4th hole showed restraint. I don't think the playability will change much though, its the same shot I always advocated there, the bump and run hook into the wind.

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