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T_MacWood

Texas golf architecture
« on: July 25, 2005, 10:25:34 PM »
What are the advantages and disadvantages of Texas golf architecture?

The state has never been given much respect for its legacy of golf architecture...why has that been the case and is it fair?

Ross, Tillinghast, Maxwell and Bredemus are the only old guys I can think of off hand who worked in the state...how good are they? The modern activity appears from a distance to be impressive (although there still aren't a lot of Texas courses on the magazine lists).
« Last Edit: July 25, 2005, 10:28:46 PM by Tom MacWood »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2005, 11:22:16 PM »
Tom - Vergist the lists. Go to Lubbock, do not pass go. Go to Lubbock.

Tyler Kearns

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2005, 12:13:39 AM »
Tom,

I would assume one of the great advantages of golf architecture in Texas would be the opportunity to design extremely wide corridors and interesting, exciting ground contours, given the stong winds experienced in the state.

TK

Paul Richards

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2005, 12:16:00 AM »
Tom

>Texas golf architecture


Especially since you posted this topic,
some might argue that this is an oxymoron.





"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ChipRoyce

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2005, 01:49:21 AM »
Paul;
Now come on.... I hope that was tounge in cheek.
I'm not saying that Texas will ever be in the class of New York, Philly, SFO and Chicago... however, over the past 5-10 years we're starting to see some pretty fine work appear in the state. In the Austin area alone you have Austin Golf Club (Coore & Crenshaw), Spanish Oaks (3 or 4th best new private) and Nicklaus' Cimmaron Hills. Other areas seem to be encountering some good new development - not to mention Tom's work at Texas Tech.

Paul Richards

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2005, 07:28:18 AM »
CR

It was, indeed, tounge in cheek.

 ;)

Tom has been "gettin' into it" with a few others on this site over restorations / Ross / Prichard etc etc.

I just figured that he'd be catching a little 'Texas' heat over this 'un.

 ;) :)
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mat Ward

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2005, 08:02:08 AM »
Tom MacWood-

PUHLEEEEEEEEZE don't insult our intelligence by thinking any Tillinghast, Brendemus, Ross or Maxwell course in the LooooooooooooneSTAR state can surpass the genius that is TOM FAZIO at Dallas National.. He really recreated the Alamo there, just an American Classic..


Jeff_Brauer

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2005, 09:40:46 AM »
The "advantages" and "disavantages" of Texas Architecture?

Hmm, the advantage is we get to play golf without leaving Texas.....the disadvantage is we get to play golf without leaving Texas!

Interesting ground contours?  Only in selected areas of DFW  (Dallas National and my Tangleride sit on the limestone escarpment that runs down I35 and gives Austin its character) and even less in Houston, where a buffalo wallow, hog hoof print or wagon wheel rut qualifies as a major topography change! Great land near Austin and SA, though.

Seriously, coming here from Chicago, I was dissapointed in the quality of the courses in 1984.  The guys from Philly and NY and possibly LA would really be dissapointed.  Even vaunted Colonial is only a top 50 course, and thats probably about right, since it is on flat ground.

Most of the Maxwell stuff around here is actually Press Maxwell, and not Perry.  Pretty good, but the originals, mostly long gone, were a bit repetitious - bunker left, bunker right.

As you mention, there are a few Tillie and Ross courses, although Ross' Galveston CC is long gone, and DA Weibring restored/renovated Cedar Crest, which may just have Tillie bunkering.  Rees redid Ross River Oaks in Houston, doing a nice job, and its a great course, but the Ross is gone.

Somewhere, I have an article on Bredemus, who is an interesting story in himself.  A woman named Francis Trimble in Humble, TX has done quite a bit of research on Texas golf courses and may be of some help if you want to really extend your research in this direction.

I hate to diss my adopted home state, but the lack of mentions in magazines of our "classics" is probably not a case of NE bias as much as a true reflection on how few great courses there were here.  As Matt suggests, we certainly tried to catch up later, since Texans aren't against spending big money for name designers, good sites, etc.  We probably have as many good modern clubs, upscale and moderate public courses as anywhere.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2005, 10:10:14 AM »
I agree with Jeff. I think Texas has as many very good new courses as anywhere in the country. The better classic courses did not survive and there were not as many built as one would think there should be either. Also the post WW II work produced some good work but very little great work. I have the same thing to say about Louisiana where many of our early clubs were in the late 1940's to 1960 period.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2005, 10:11:27 AM »
Francis Trimble wrote the Austin Country Club history and was very helpful in getting some information about the club.  

Press Maxwell actually lived in Dallas for several years and oversaw the construction of much of his fathers work in Texas after World War II.  Prior to World War II, Perry Maxwell only worked on two courses in Texas.  Those were Colonial and the Mount Pleasant Country Club.  After World War II Perry was much busier as they did several military courses between San Antonio and Ardmore.  Randolph and Fort Hood were the two that were documented by Cornish and Whitten, but it is believed that they did several others, mostly layouts left to the bases to construct.  Also, two of Perry's three uncompleted courses were in Dallas.  Oak Cliffs and River Hills (later known as Knollwood) were completed shortly after Perry's death by Press.  I haven't had much luck in getting anything on River Hills as far as the layout or history of the course other than what Hodie Maxwell (Press' wife) told me in one of our conversations.  But Oak Cliffs has a lot of history as a former PGA tour site and Jeff Brauer gave me some very helpful topo and aerial photos of the course.

 

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2005, 10:23:00 AM »
One interesting side note to Press is that when I redesigned some things at Brookhaven in Dallas in 1989 or so, which Press is credited with designing, I saw a TED ROBINSON land plan/routing plan, which they basically followed in constructing the golf courses.

I have never asked Ted about how that came about, or why he didn't finish the courses and why Press did.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2005, 10:23:06 AM »
This is a classic case in which the person doing the reviewing needs to be relatively up-to-date in terms of their overall understanding of the Lone Star State.

Clearly, years ago one could safely say -- minus the few good layouts in and around the major metro areas like Big D and Houston, that few courses of serious consequence were available.

That has changed gradually and now you can see the explosion of golf alternatives from qualit CCFAD's such as Cowboys in the Dallas area to The Rawls Course in Lubbock to The Quarry in San Antonio to the continuous development of private gate-communities with their accompanying golf options -- especially in the Austin area and near Lake Travis.

The bulk of Texas from a "quality land" perspective is lacking but then again you do get superior sites such as Dallas National which frankly overwhelmed me for the sheer majesty the terrain provides.

Texas has the most potential to be a big time player int he 21st century simply because golf is such a hot ticket item and because land and the cost to build is not fenced in by a host of other realities (environmental, etc, etc) that other states must deal with on a consistent basis.

Tiger_Bernhardt

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2005, 10:47:04 AM »
The price of oil and natural gas will help make the money to make these projects happen easier and easier to come by as well.

RT

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2005, 11:24:53 AM »
Piney Woods of east Texas.  A rich vein of sites

mike_beene

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2005, 12:25:34 PM »
Does anyone know much about Ralph Plummer?He was involved in a lot of courses in Texas,sometimes in partnership with others.Three Plummer courses had a lone tree in the middle of a fairway(Preston Trail,Tennison,Lakewood)In the early 90's,when C& C were redoing Lakewood "lightning " struck the tree and it was long gone when the course reopened 6 months later.

T_MacWood

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2005, 01:38:37 PM »
RT
Is the land between Dallas and Houston considered East Texas? What is the land like around Austin?

Jeff
Did you see River Oaks prior to Rees? If so what were your impressions?

Chris_Clouser

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2005, 01:53:18 PM »
My knowledge of Plummer is limited at best.  He was very prominent in Texas and got his start working with John Bredemus in some capacity.  Champions is one of his best known layouts.  He also has a course in Waco that host some annual Texas tournament called Ridgewood on Lake Waco that was a major redesign.  In talking with the club they know Plummer did a complete redesign, but they are not 100% sure who did the course that was there prior.  

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2005, 02:05:55 PM »
I remember Plummer died just as I moved to DFW. I would have liked to have met him but didn't get the chance.  As it turns out, I may be DFW's modern version of Ralph, having designed over a dozen courses here, which is almost as many as he has......

I recall that tree in the middle of the fw, in front of the green at Lakewood.  I don't recall the others, but it was cool.  Plummer did courses here like Eastern Hills and my home course of Great Southwest.  Another feature I have seen on all of them is a reverse slope dogleg (13 at GSW and 7 at EH for example) where you have to aim well inside the dogleg to get where you want to go, although this may not have been the case in the shorter hitting era.  

My very first solo green design was 6 at Eastern Hills. I think it was built in the late 50's or early 60's.  I recall surveying it and the basic cross slope was 6% which blew my mind.  I knew Killian and Nugent were using 3-4% slopes throughout the 60's, and maybe that was the difference between bent greens up north and bermuda in the south.

I know he designed for the wind, usually canting his greens with the wind.  When you start looking, he did a lot of features that got popular again later.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tyler Kearns

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2005, 02:24:44 PM »
Interesting ground contours?  

Jeff,

I did say the opportunity to "design" interesting ground contours, not discover them. Just clarifying.

TK

Jeff_Brauer

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2005, 02:47:34 PM »
Local golfers have asked me to design fw contours to hold in their "running beauty duck hooks....."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_beene

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2005, 03:18:56 PM »
Other middle of fairway trees 10 at Preston Trails and 1 at Tennison West.Come to think of it,there is kind of one on 9 at Cowboys,perhaps by a modern day Plummer?Not sure if Bendelow or Plummer responsible for Lakewood's extreme green slopes but a few did get subtly softened in the redo.

SteveC

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2005, 04:20:24 PM »
IMHO, it's all about topography, and there ain't much of it in Dallas. Dallas National is extremely unusual in that respect. Brook Hollow (Tillinghast, 1920's) is a classic and has some nice rolling terrain. Some of the newer courses are pretty nifty - Texas Star in Euless (between D and FW) is a pleasure, and Pine Dunes in Frankston (about 1 hr 45 min) east of Dallas is a well-kept secret. Sandy soils and some interesting terrain combine for a very pleasant surprise.

The Texas Hill Country has the land and the topo for greatness. Tom Kite's rcent creation at Comamche Trace outside Kerrville is considerably better than average.

Mike Nuzzo

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2005, 04:45:41 PM »
What is the oldest course in Texas?

Beaumont was formed in 1906 and designed by Alex Findlay.
Although not on it's current site.

Baxter, with some help from me, performed quite the renovation there last year.
I asked here in the recent past who would be interested in a visit and got a good response.
It is fully grown in and I plan to make an official invite soon.

Cheers

I play way more golf out of texas than in... if that is any indicator of the quality.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

MarkT

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2005, 04:57:36 PM »

mike_beene

Re:Texas golf architecture
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2005, 10:34:57 PM »
This lack of topography argument makes no sense to me,except for maybe in Houston.How many of the world's top 20 courses have much elevation change?Augusta,Olympic are more in the minority.Colonial is flat,and I don't understand its appeal.Shady Oaks,Dallas National,Horseshoe Bay,Ridgewood to name a few are if anything to hilly.Most of the old Dallas courses roll up and down.As you go into N Dallas it is much flatter.I think the soils and grasses have been a bigger issue.The new grasses have really helped.

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