The People's Republic of Scottsdale v. Nicklaus Design

[Jeff Fortson]

Disclaimer::::  Jack Nicklaus is one of my heros.  I have always been a fan of Jack as a player and as a family man.  I have met him twice, briefly.  Both were when I was a teenager and he was extremely warm and kind.  Both times he talked to me for longer than he needed to make a positive impression on my memory.  


"This is a golf course that is unique among any of the courses I've been involved with." " Desert Highlands begins with probably a greater and denser variety of desert foliage than I've ever seen. Added to this are the rocks of Pinnacle Peak and the views which are outstanding during the day and breathtaking at night. " The course is built with a concept of harmonizing the course and the desert vegetation in a design format not used to this extreme before." " The course will produce all the golf that a good golfer will want to find. The fairways are wide enough so that the intelligent average golfer can play it well. The average golfer must become a more intelligent player to challenge the course successfully. And the course is one that woman will find manageable and pleasant. We have been totally sensitive to our responsibility and obligation to protect this magnificent site."

- Jack Nicklaus


I am not starting this thread to tear Jack Nicklaus apart as a person, golfer, businessman or architect.  I am simply interested in hearing the opinions of those that have played any of the Desert Mountain courses or Desert Highlands.  I have opinions on the courses, some positive... some negative.  I have played the Geronimo and Outlaw courses at Desert Mountain in competition and will be playing Desert Highlands next week in a tournament.

I will open with one positive followed by one negative about Desert Highlands.

Positive - Overall (barring the first hole), there are some great driving holes.  I particularly liked the fact that you need to work the ball both ways over the course of the round to utilize the proper strategies of the course.  I really liked the tee shots on #6 (double fariway with real strategies involved in your choice of  play), #13 is creative in its use of strategy with a daring drive giving the player an easy pitch to the green where a lay-up leaves a tricky short iron approach, and #17 an elevated tee shot on a par-5 where a properly hit draw reaps the reward of leaving a mid to long iron appraoch on this 580 yard hole.

Negative -  The opening hole sits at least 100 feet above the fairway.  The hole is less than 400 yards long.  Sounds easy right?  Wrong.  I am a big believer in an easy to moderate difficulty in the first tee shot.  Not here.  This shot had my cornhole clenched so tight I could have carved a diamond had I eaten a raw one a half hour before.  While I should be taking in  the beautiful views of Scottsdale, Paradise Valley and the northern parts of Phoenix in starting an enjoyable round, I instead found myself sweating and completely focussed on the shot in front of me...  a steep, rock infested mountainside to the right of the fairway and a densely vegetated desert to the left.  The problem... THE FAIRWAY IS 30 YARDS WIDE!!!  From at least 100 feet above the fariway that makes the effective landing area much smaller.  Nothing like reloading twice before you've even made it off the first tee.  How is this good for the average golfer or for the scratch player at that?  I think it is really important to give a player (of any caliber) a chance to get his/her sea legs when starting the round.  The first tee shot should be one of, if not, the easiest tee shots of the round.  I found this one to be the toughest.  Especially mentally.

I will be diving into other courses, holes and the like but I just wanted to get the conversation started.  

I will end the first post with this....

While I have enjoyed parts of these courses and think some of the features and holes are genius, I find that the overall expeience is too penal to be enjoyable on a daily basis.  I don't see how anyone but low single-digit handicappers can challenge these courses.  

I agree with Nicklaus that, "The average golfer must become a more intelligent player to challenge the course successfully."  This is a huge understatement.  Not only will the average golfer need to become more intelligent, he/she will need to acquire a tremendous amount more skill to challenge the course.

I disagree with Nicklaus that, "And the course is one that women will find manageable..."  I don't see that.  Most of the women that frequent this course don't play on the LPGA tour or at a high level of skill.   There are many forced carries and strategies, that if accidentally used, could lead to infinite scores for some players.

Your thoughts, impressions or opinions?


Jeff F.

[PThomas]

wow, Jeff, if it made you pucker what hope would there be for the rest of us?  and esp the first hole!!!

[kurt bowman]

Jeff,

I have not played, nor was I involved in the design of DH but I did work there renovating some greens when I was building the 5th course at Desert Mountain. I remember the 1st tee shot at DH, and I can't say that I disagree with your opinion that it makes your cornhole pucker. I do remember that it was maybe the most dramatic first hole tee shot I have ever seen. Jack, and Nicklaus Design's style has certainly evolved since DH. I am not sure if you have played all the courses at DM, but the neat thing is they are all different in style. You can really see how Jack has evolved through the years. Interested to see your comments. Kurt Bowman

[PjW]

Jeff:

When the developer is taking advantage of the elevation to maximize views from the clubhouse generally you are going to eventually go down hill from there, ala Desert Highlands and Castle Pines.  It is SOP to try and keep the 1st and 10 tees somewhat close to the clubhouse.  This always becomes a challenge when trying to lay out the these tees as well as the 9th and 18th greens, ppg, driving range, clubhouse and parking lots.  There is a whole lot of stuff to concentrate in one area and at times compromises are made.  

As the Nicklaus agronomist back in those days I remember that the view was not going to be compromised.  Looking back I would think that everyone involved with DH is proud of their involvement and DH has its place in desert golf history.

Kurt,

Long time no see.

Phil      

[Jeff Fortson]

I agree that Desert Highlands is something that any member of the team that built it should be proud of.  It was, from what I gather, one of the first to blend into the native backdrop of the desert.  

I understand that #1 and #10 are almost always going to be near the clubhouse and I am not arguing with the location of the first tee.  I don't mind the first tee being elevated.  What I am not impressed with is the incredibly small landing area from such an elevated tee for the FIRST shot of the day.  There is plenty of room left that could have been grassed (at least it appears that way) to make the landing area wider and more relaxed for your first swing of the day.

Don't get me wrong, Desert Highlands is a very challenging, architecturally stimulating and beuatiful course.  I guess that ultimately I am trying to get at the heart of what both Desert Highlands and the Desert Mountain courses offer their memberships from an architectural standpoint.  If someone you knew was a bogey golfer and looking to join a club in Scottsdale, would you recommend these courses based on what they offer the player architecturally?  Forget about the social, food and beverage, homesite advantages of these clubs.  We all know they are top notch.

While I find some of the holes and architecture to be marvelous, I find these courses too penal for the average golfer.  Are these courses that would be enjoyable to play over and over?  I don't know the answer to that question.  I would assume that the answer is no.  They just appear to be too hard to enjoy on a frequent basis.


Jeff F.

[MarkT]

I played DH when it first opened so I don't remember too much about it. One thing I do remember is, teeing off on the first hole I pushed my drive to the right. At that time (and may still be) there was a boulder on the right edge. My shot was headed right at that boulder. We could not find my ball so back to the tee I went. Hit to the green and guess what we found OVER the green? Yep, my ball. Must have hit on the back side of the boulder and rocketed over the green.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:

I have always given credit to Desert Highlands as the forerunner of modern desert golf, a really interesting and radical design.  

Traditionalists in the valley always tell me I'm wrong, that Desert Forest is the true original, but I thought that many of Nicklaus' concepts (the "transition" bunkers to make the course more playable for the members, the dramatic tee shots and interrupted fairways) were different, and have been borrowed by other architects ever since.

However, as with any successful forerunner, the course is not as unique as it once was because it has been imitated so often by now.  Par fives with two or three landing areas?  I've seen that about 100 times now.  Nicklaus  Design has also undermined the originality of the course to some degree by doing so many other courses in the Scottsdale area and in Cabo and other places, and the Cabo courses have the advantage of oceanfront settings which put them on a higher level for most critics.

The one thing I never liked about Desert Highlands were the severe greens, because the tiers in them were very linear and modular and contrived in appearance.  I understand the greens were totally redone a few years ago, but I haven't seen them since.

And I did love the first tee shot, although I thought it was a bit long of a carry.  (Remember the Skins Game when Arnie didn't reach the fairway from the second tee?)  The first tee shot at Stone Eagle is a bit of an ode to the one at Desert Highlands; in fact I would plead guilty to taking some of Jack's original concepts from the Highlands (connected fairways, big bunkers as playable recovery areas) and trying to expand on them at Stone Eagle.

[Jeff Fortson]

Tom,

As a teenager my friends and I would hang out up near the "cross" to get away from the fuzz and the like.  It's hard to imagine a golf course being developed on that terrain.  With that said, I have had friends see the current state of Stone Eagle and they seem to think it will be one of the best courses in the Coachella Valley.  Sounds like a must play when it opens.   I look forward to seeing it.

I guess my question to the masses here is growing into something other than Nicklaus's courses in the Scottsdale area and more focussed on all desert style courses that are similar to Desert Highlands in some way or another.  While they are engineering marvels, are they good for golf?  I think to a certain degree that they are.  I just find many of them to be too penal for the average golfer to enjoy regularly.  

Will Stone Eagle fall into that category?  Do you think it is a more penal design for you?  I haven't seen it, so I am just throwing that out there.


Jeff F.


PS:  I found the greens at Desert Highland to be quite small for Nicklaus and the green's tiers weren't anything I haven't seen before.  

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff:  We have tried really hard to avoid making Stone Eagle a penal course, at our clients' request.  [It's hard to sell high-dollar memberships to a difficult course in the Palm Springs market; the people who have the money don't have the game.]  Most of the golf holes have 200-300 feet of turf across the landing areas, and some holes have connected fairways to accomplish the same thing.

However, on any desert course it is inevitable that topped or drastically off-line shots will wind up off the 90 acres of turfgrass you're allowed to have, and at Stone Eagle those shots will wind up on stark, rocky desert soil, not even as playable as the decomposed granite you've got in Scottsdale.  The trick for us has been to try and limit that experience without making the course seem ridiculously easy for the good player.

The course will open at the end of November, and shortly afterward I will know whether we have accomplished that goal.

[Forrest Richardson]

Desert Highlands was a breakthrough in desert golf. Scott Miller deserves credit for helping create the course as he was the field guy for Nicklaus at the time. I built a scale model of the course as it was being finished — it was a job, at least!

I think the opening shot is breathtaking. The course is not too difficult if the tees are appropriately chosen. How many players (guests especially) choose the appropriate tees? 25% at most.

Regarding Desert Mountain; there is a lot of golf to love and hate there. My perepsctive is that it is a gallery of golf to be enjoyed or cursed by the eye of the beholder. What more could any member ask for? There is a wide spectrum of golf and it can all be fun.

(Please note that this post has been made by a Yankee's fan...beware. These people are far from normal and can be very rude to anything with an Arizona connection.)

[Lynn_Shackelford]

What?  No comments about the clubhouse at Desert Highlands?  One of golf's most unique.  You don't see it when you are playing the course.  The opposite of the old courses like Olympic, Riviera, etc.
Otherwise my feelings about Desert Highlands are similar to those previously mentioned.  Glad to hear they "fixed" the greens, they were crazy severe.
Of more significance to golf was the televising of the first Skins game, it changed golf design in the desert.  Everyone wanted to start building courses which would look dramatic on TV.  The Landmark folks looked at that and ran with the PGA courses in La Quinta.  Some of those are good, PGA West Stadium, Citrus and Mountain, others don't work as well, but many attempt to copy them.

[Tom_Doak]

Lynn:  Your last statement may be generally true, but I know I had drawn the original plan for the Stadium Course at PGA West for Pete Dye before I went to The Skins Game at Desert Highlands.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tom: Did your hand slip when it came to the Tip O'neil Bunker? Did you carve a literal hole in the drawing sheet?

[Tom_Doak]

Forrest:  Pete did that on purpose.  If they built it to the plan, it's eighteen feet deep.