[George Pazin]

I don't just want to see what it takes to build one of these things, I want to drag my nearing-40 year old bones out next to one of the interns and grab a shovel.

Maybe that will be my birthday request for my wife - send me to one of Tom's projects for a week. Kind of like a GCA fantasy camp.

I'm not sure if I should hope Tom's building one near me in '07, or another one on the other side of the world.

 

[Doug Wright]

One modest concern re Ballyneal: It seems to be right in the middle of "tornado alley" in NE Colorado. Eg last night the weather folks reported "golf ball sized hail"   up there, and tornado watches/warnings seem prevalent. I'm curious if the cognoscente have discussed this.  

[Mike_Cirba]

One modest concern re Ballyneal: It seems to be right in the middle of "tornado alley" in NE Colorado. Eg last night the weather folks reported "golf ball sized hail"   up there, and tornado watches/warnings seem prevalent. I'm curious if the cognoscente have discussed this.  

Old Doug,

Nae wind, nae golf!  

[Dan Kelly]

Maybe that will be my birthday request for my wife - send me to one of Tom's projects for a week. Kind of like a GCA fantasy camp.

That's a GREAT idea! It really is.

Take it away, Tom Doak!

P.S. to George: I'll thank you not to make any further "old" references to bones nearing 40.

Thank you.

[Andy Doyle]

That is a great idea.  He could probably even make money - after all, it costs around 5 grand to go to one of those baseball fantasy camps.

Of course, the ice and Advil might eat up all his profits.

AD

[Andrew Cunningham]

I gotta admit those pictures make the course look like it's destined to win awards and take its place among America's Best Modern Classics.  But I wonder if Mr. Doak would also excel at something other than "links" - for lack of a better word - courses.  What about an "Augusta" style parkland course?  Could Tom and his crew adapt their many talents to this architecture style and still produce a world-class course?

[George Pazin]

Dan -

38 is my chronological age. But years of manual screenprinting mean I have the shoulders, elbows, wrists and hands of a 70 year old....

Of course, emotionally I'm probably about a 15 year old, so those things tend to even out.

And God knows today's 15 year olds have experienced a lot more of life than me even now! But that's probably a good thing.... I can only hope my 1 year old turns out as naive and innocent as me.

Andrew Cunningham -

Leaving aside the obvious examples of Tom's highly regarded courses at Lost Dunes, Stonewall, High Point, etc., and leaving aside my personal preferences for "linksy" type courses, what would lead you to conclude that one designer couldn't adapt well to other styles?

Mackenzie built Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne, and Augusta, Ross did Seminole in addition to his many parkland courses, Tillie refined Newport CC in addition to parkland masterpieces like Winged Foot. In modern times, C&C has built a tremendous varity of courses, from Kapalua and the Talking Stick courses to Hidden Creek and Friars Head. Seems to me a great architect can build a great course to fit a great site. I don't think Tom's any different in that respect.

[Tom_Doak]

Re:  fantasy camp:  if someone really wants to come out and work for free, they would probably be welcome to do so on some of our projects.  Just contact us and see.

There will also be a design contest in GOLF Magazine this fall where you could win the chance to do just that.

Andrew C:  I think we've done courses in a wide variety of styles, but "linksy" type courses generally receive more acclaim (and not just mine).  There aren't many examples of classic parkland courses among the top 100 modern ... Kinloch might be the highest rated which you could put in that category.  Parkland courses generally take a while to mature and achieve their highest ranking.

[Tim Bert]

How about preliminary routing fantasy camp?  I'd love to be there at the very beginning to witness the thought process firsthand.

[Andrew Cunningham]

Tom and George,

My thought process here is really leaning towards whether "links" style courses are easier/less expensive to build and once you get VERY good at building them perhaps it is difficult to breakout of that "links specialist" stereotype.

Tom, you made a great observation about parkland courses (other than Kinloch and maybe a couple others) not being ranked nearly as high as the ever popular links style for modern courses.  Perhaps you are correct that maturity has a great deal to do with this response but I also wonder if those who rank/rate courses (ourselves included) do not hold a certain irreverence for the mysterious and inspirational links style.  

Sand Hills, Ballyneal, Pacific Dunes, Whistling Straits, Arcadia Bluffs, and more are great courses for many reasons other than they were created in the links style.  But could any new course other than a links course even come close to achieving the accolades and acclaim of the aforementioned courses?  My guess is no.  My question is why?

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:  Because sandy, windy, real links golf is a much more interesting form of golf!

[DMoriarty]

Andrew:  Because sandy, windy, real links golf is a much more interesting form of golf!

For shame, Tom, for shame!  Dont you know that the golf world is a great big wonderful world where we cannot make absolute pronouncements like yours?  Why, it is all a matter of taste, isn't it?   Carting from one sluicebox fairway to another on a so-called mountain course is equally as interesting as walking any wind blown links.   It is your pro-links bias rearing its ugly head.

[Mike_Cirba]

Man, Moriarty...

You're fired up tonight.  

[Kirk Gill]

I kinda wish there was a ban on re-cycling GB&I town and course names (i.e. Kinloch, Ballyneal).  It's too confusing.

Hey, they could have named the course Hoylake. In Holyoke, Colorado.

[George Pazin]

Tom and George,

My thought process here is really leaning towards whether "links" style courses are easier/less expensive to build ...

And for part II of my "why" series, why would you think "links" style courses are easier/less expensive to build? In your mini list of 5 modern "links" style courses, the first three might not have involved much land movement by the architect, but that doesn't make it any "easier". And the latter 2 certainly involved a good amount of land moving, Whistling Straits involved a HUGE amount.

I think there is a latent bias - sorry, hate that word - among many that courses in which the architect chose not to move much land are "easier" to build. My own particular bias - sorry again - is that it's much easier to bulldoze away everything and just drop in what you want, regardless of whether it fits, whether it looks natural, or whether it is as good as what was there originally, than to actually study and use what is there.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Tom
You are quite right, I did not mean to exclude any of your omportant team members, but at the time of writing my contribution, I was thinking of my pending trip to Kingsley, and was viewing the pictures of Boston GC.

I fully understand that the Doak projects rely on a great amount of contribtion from alot of members, and I for one would not want to exclude anybody.

All I can say is that as a team the quality of work so far has been wonderful.
I look forward to playing High Pointe on my trip to Kingsley.

[Andrew Cunningham]

George,

You're correct in pointing out that in some cases "links" courses are not less expensive to build (ie. Whistling Straits) and certainly you are correct that utilizing what mother nature gave you instead of creating can be much more difficult.  But I wonder if given Tom's talents and passion for links courses is it not easier for him to create these masterpieces than say a Wolf Creek or a TPC at Sugarloaf?  And if it is easier for him to use what is already there does that not make the construction costs less expensive than an architect who has to move a lot of dirt?

Is a manufactured links course (ie. Whistling Straits) not as good as a minimalist links course (ie. Pacific Dunes) just because a lot of dirt was moved?  If the end result is spectacular like both of these course are, does it really matter how they came to be?

[A_Clay_Man]

Andrew- At least you're asking the right person. I know for a fact that George very much appreciated the massive earth movings at Doaks most under-rated design.

[Tom_Doak]

Andrew:  You are right of course that building something like Ballyneal is a lot easier than creating The Rawls Course or Stone Eagle.  And a lot less expensive, too.  That doesn't automatically make it a better project, or a worse one.  In the end you still have to get all the details right ... at Ballyneal there are less things to fix, but it will be more glaring if we make an error.

But comparing Whistling Straits to Pacific Dunes, I still think Pete Dye's dunes run second to mother Nature's best stuff ... and an ocean always beats a lake for background!

[Tim Bert]

Whistling Straits looks a lot like a links course and the wind blows like one might expect on a links course, but I didn't find the shot options to be reflective of a links course.  I didn't feel like I had the putting and bump and run options presented to me there.

It's an amazing effort by Mr. Dye to be sure, but I second the notion that it's not quite on par with the natural setting of Pacific Dunes.

I enjoyed both to be sure, but if I only get to pick one of the two to play again then it is no contest.  

PS - I still don't understand how #5 fits in at WS.  I'd love for someone that does understand it's place to take a shot at explaining it to an amateur.

[Kevin_Reilly]

I missed this thread when I was out of town, but just let me say that I just saw a handful of other Ballyneal pics that are absolutely incredible. On par or better than the pics posted above.  Unfortunately, my "source" has asked me not to post them, so I guess this is just a tease.

When you see them, you will want to check travel times to DIA.  

[Mike Benham]

When you see them, you will want to check travel times to DIA.  

Kevin -

The actual airport code for Denver International is DEN (KDEN) ...

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()