[mike_malone]

 Played there yesterday. I was mostly impressed by  the guys in the grill room.  Mike Trenham even showed up. Isn't that a major reason for joining a golf club?

     The course is probably a Doak 4 ( above average,nothing to distinguish itself). I read the Master Plan last night and think they should just keep going through that plan.

     The suggestion in the plan that the greens may not have been built originally to Ross standards rings true to me. This would increase the challenge dramatically.

 The suggestion of the short drop shot par three and uphill four would have added to the variety of the course.

     This would break up the number of high tee shots-low landing area- high greensite  holes.

     You can take those high fescues and stick them.........

   If you choose to change a hole for a driving range and not to take the bold advice on changing two holes ,what does that say about your restoration commitment?


        It's time for Mr. Sweeney to stop lurking on here and join the site.  I recommended he begin with his thread idea " The best drunk golfer ".

[Mike_Cirba]

mayday,

Could you explain what appears to be a contradiction in terms when you say that the reluctance to change two holes (sounds like pretty completely) indicates some flagging of will for a "restoration"?  

Looking forward to tomorrow!  

[mike_malone]

 Mike,
   The plan is at home , but I believe Prichard states that Ross in some stage of design wanted it this way, but for some reason (I am not aware of now) something else eventually was done. So, it would be a "restoration" to an original concept.

     This may be a variant of the Aronimink issue ,but I am no expert here and sure don't want to get into it with the "heavyweights" on this site.

  I will get the plan after lunch.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

Are you certain that the two holes you describe would be on current club property?

The club is on grounds once owned by a prominent Philadelphia family.  I think there has been some negotiations between the club and the family that still owns adjacent land to acquire land for two holes.  These might be the ones you refer to.  Might they be near that dogleg left with the stream by the property line?

The only time I've been there is in a GAP match a few years ago against that all-around good guy Mike Trenham.  He came from behind to beat me and I haven't gotten the better of him since.  Maybe next month when he gives me another rematch  

[TEPaul]

"mayday,
Could you explain what appears to be a contradiction in terms when you say that the reluctance to change two holes (sounds like pretty completely) indicates some flagging of will for a "restoration"?"

MikeC:

Yeah, I think I can. Originally the 13th hole was a par 3 and the 14th a par 4. Now it's the other way around. I do not know if that's the way it was on the original plan only and not built that way or if it was built that way and then changed.

In any case, I don't think that has anything to do with the situation with the new range and the alteration recently of the 17th and 18th holes. They used to be two par 4s, and now they're a par 3 17th and par 4 18th with the new range where most all the old 18th hole was.

When you're as used to what used to be there as I am looking at the new 17th and 18th now is odd. The real problem with the new set up is you have to travel well over 200 yards now to get from the 17th green to the new 18th tee which is where the old 17th green used to be. Then you drive right by the new 17th green on your down the new dogleg right 18th to the same green of the old 18th.  

[RE Blanks]

If I remember correctly St Davids had one of the strangest practice tees i have ever seen.  the practice tee was set adjacent to the 18th fairway.  on the other side of the fairway was a huge net.  when we were warming up no one was on the 18th but I could see where this could be a problem.  And i hear they have made some changes.  Some good holes here.  I really like the stretch on the front nine from 6-9.  7 was probably me favorite.  
The one hole I was not fond of was 12.  If I recall it is a par four of about 420+.  at about 175 from the tee the fairway turns into a severe slope all the way to a creek at the bottom of the hill.  The green is then is elevated 30 or 40 ft.  So what you have is a tee shot that clears the 175 yards will run but never find a level lie.  The approach is downhill hill to an elevated green.  I couldn't see anyone laying back to avoid the slope to be faced with a 230+ approach.  

But overall I really liked St Davids and think this one would be talked about a little more if not for its famous neighbors.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks Tom,

I'm supposed to play there with Mike T. in a few weeks so I'd like to try to understand the evolution a bit before I get there.

[TEPaul]

That's OK Wayne---you can go right ahead and tell them who that family is you described. I'm sure nobody's gonna get pissed about anything at this point. And following that I might describe the history of the relationship of the club and that family from about 90 years ago until today. It looks like it goes back that far and it's pretty much been a bad relationship right on along.  

[TEPaul]

"Thanks Tom,
I'm supposed to play there with Mike T. in a few weeks so I'd like to try to understand the evolution a bit before I get there."

MikeC:

I'll tell you what. Maybe I'll tell you the evolution of St Davids and maybe I won't. But if you find me one of the top shyster lawyers in America I'll tell you the evolution immediately because then there would be a real possiblilty that St David's G.C would be MINE!!

And if that came to pass then Wayne and I wouldn't need to take Mayday Malone to some dinner on Friday night, we could pretty much just have him over to the Grill Room at St David's with all those "good guys" where we'd proceed to pummel him into submission until he agreed to put that bunker in on the approach to the 7th hole at Rolling Green.

[wsmorrison]

Well, with your permission, Tom.  

Those not so famous but influencial Philadelphians that owned most of that whole area were none other than the Paul family.  The land that St. Davids Country Club currently resides on (they moved to the present site from Radnor in 1925) was once Woodcrest, a large estate with a 50-room home designed by one of my favorite architects, Horace Trumbauer.  The estate was owned by James W. Paul (alas that name will be no more after this generation--unless Tom adopts me and changes my name    The stables for the estate dwarfed any in the region and could accommodate 60 horses as well as quarters for non-household staff.  Trumbauer also designed a gate lodge, cow barn and dairy, springhouse, pool pavilion and automobile garage for the estate.

James W. Paul married the daughter of Anthony J. Drexel and entered his banking firm. That firm is a classic Philadelphia story...very powerful but very discreet.  They let the New Yorkers have the press while they enjoyed the behind the scenes annonymity.  One of those New Yorkers was JP Morgan and he got shot!

JW Paul left the estate to his son. A portion of it was sold to the St. David's Golf Club in 1925.

[mike_malone]

 Now all TEPaul owns is the chicken farm next to the course

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Are you sure you don't want to save that story about how St. David's could by yours for one of our long road trips?  

Aww...tell it now, I'm all ears, er eyes.  I've got the perfect lawyer for you!

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

On post #9---good story. I didn't know half of that.

Did you know that there's a legitimate ghost story that involves those massive stables?

Yep! That part of the old place is now Cabrini College. The Pauls eventually sold that part of the old place and that Traumbauer mansion, stables etc to the Dorrance family (of Campbell Soup fame) maybe in the teens or 1920s. I don't know exactly when St Davids's G.C. was moved and built where it is but probably in the early 1920s. The Pauls owned the land St David's is now on and half way to Wayne so I've been told. They then moved over to the rest of the place on the side of the road most of the back nine of St David's is on.

Back to that ghost story that all Cabrini College students seem to be aware of and an inordinate amount of them even claim they've seen or heard that ghost, so I'm told.

Who is the ghost? The story goes a good looking stable hand nailed one of James W. Paul's daughters (maybe in the stable) and knocked her up. James W. was more than furious and went out there and did the lothario in!

The connection with the Pauls and St David's G.C. may be even more complicated though. The one who really knows all this is Pete Trenham.

It seems that when contemplating a move from the old St David's course to the present one, my grandfather, A.J. Drexel Paul, James W's son told St David's that he'd do most of the club (since he did own that land) but for whatever reason, A.J. Drexel Paul decided to start GMGC instead with about ten other guys from Merion who were pissed Merion had become so crowded. So, that's what A.J. did perhaps pissing off St David's G.C.

Then many decades later my uncle A,J. D. Paul Jr who was one helluva a nice guy (my grandfather was to me a damn good-for-nothing jerk and my Dad felt strongly that way about him) was contacted by St David's to see if they could do something about fixing that radical dogleg left 13th hole because he owned the inside of the dogleg.

I think that might've been in the era of Victor Mauch, St David's czar supreme and big-time guy in Philly golf administration. Apparently they worked out a plan and A. J. D Paul Jr went to some elaborate lengths to shift deeds around in the family and a lot of legal work preparatory to the deal with St David's over fixing that dogleg left #13.

At that point, so the Paul side of the story goes the club said they weren't interested in the deal anymore precipitating A.J.D. Paul Jr to get so pissed off at St David's G.C. he basically refused to speak to them for the rest of his life.

Now, I'm from Long Island and I didn't know any of this stuff until about 2-3 years ago when Ron Prichard called me up and asked if I could help work out some fix on the 13th hole with the Paul family.

I said I didn't see why that would be a problem and that I would call this time my cousin A.J. D Paul 3rd (A.J Jr had now died). A.J. 3rd (Tony) is my cousin and he's really a nice guy who I've never known to say a single cantankerous word, at least not to me. Tony also lives above the dogleg on #13 and most to the rest of that side of the course on the place of his grandfather and father.

So I call Tony for Ron and St. Davids's G.C. and no sooner are the words St. David's G.C. and potentially fixing the dogleg 13th hole out of my mouth when Tony says;

"WHOA, HOLD ON, STOP! I'm not even going to go there, and certainly not now!!"

And then he told me this whole story I just told. That's the Paul's side of about a 90 year old story with the Pauls and St David's G.C. I never knew.

I told all this to the president of the club and to Ron and so nothing happened. I also asked Tony if he'd ever played St David's G.C. and he said never, not a single time in his life. He said he'd never been there and he's lived right next door all his life. That right there is pretty damn strange for a guy whose lived right next to the course for the entire 55 years or so of his life. Wouldn't you think if the club wanted to work something out with the Pauls over the last 30 or so years perhaps they might just ask Tony over there, at least?

So, anyway, that's the story, nothing will probably ever happen, but again if Mike Cirba can find me a really good shyster lawyer we might just take a look at the deed when my grandfather or even great grandfather sold that land to St David's G.C., find some minor glitch in it, at which point logically me and Tony will come to own St David's G.C.!  

[wsmorrison]

Great story Tom.  Come on, you don't know a good Philadelphia lawyer?  

I think AJ Drexel Paul took over the estate in 1908 and sold the estate to the Dorrance family in 1924.  They sold off the portion to SDCC the following year.

[TEPaul]

"Come on, you don't know a good Philadelphia lawyer?"

Are you serious? Forget the name and cliche "Philadelphia lawyer" as being coony and clever. These Philadelphia lawyers are a bunch of patsies compared to the juggernauts I know from New York.

You line up what you think are the top 20 shyster Philadelphia lawyers and I'll bring just one really good NYC shyster down from New York and he'll fold and spindle those top 20 Philadelphia shyster lawyers in about 1 and 1/2 Newark seconds!!  (or maybe a Trenton second---I'm not sure)

Have you ever seen one of those NY shyster lawyers work? It's a real sight, to say the least. I saw one once fall asleep and start snoring during the meat and heat of the negotiations and then sure enough one of the opponents said something sort of loopholish and border-line assuming the shyster was fast asleep and not listening and like a cobra that shyster came alive and nailed him to the cross and turned the deal totally!

No way, if Tony and I really want St David's G.C. the shyster who'll get it for us is coming down from the Big Apple!    

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Played there yesterday. I was mostly impressed by  the guys in the grill room.  Mike Trenham even showed up. Isn't that a major reason for joining a golf club?

Mike-
  I've never seen St. David's.  What Ross does it most resemble/is the architecture of the course, green complexes, etc., comparable to say, Lu Lu?  

Thx-

DRB

[mike_malone]

 Doug,
     I did  not feel  that many holes were like Lulu. The slightly uphill par threes were similar to one at Lulu. But more were like Gulph Mills--except for the green contours --- and some like Torresdale.

[Mike_Trenham]

Played there yesterday. I was mostly impressed by  the guys in the grill room.  Mike Trenham even showed up. Isn't that a major reason for joining a golf club?

Yes it is.

     The course is probably a Doak 4 ( above average,nothing to distinguish itself). I read the Master Plan last night and think they should just keep going through that plan.

Doak rated it a 3, 4 is about right 5 if we get the plan right.

     The suggestion in the plan that the greens may not have been built originally to Ross standards rings true to me. This would increase the challenge dramatically.

Only 12 original greens remain, Tillinghast and the membership changed 9 from a drivable par 4 to a long par three.  One of the best holes on the course.  Change was made due to the proximity to the terrace off the new dining room.

13 and 14 were changed from 3-4 to a 4-3 combination.  Ross and his associates drew it in both configurations, the routing I have at my house shows the 4-3 combination.  We think this may have been Tillinghast as well, but records only show comments on #9.  Folklore has it that the change was made because we did not have any doglegs on the back nine.  Our records are poor.  14 was also rebuilt when Brian Silva "restored" the course in 1995.  More on this latter....  But we rebuilt it this year with Ron Prichard and I think it will be a good hole now, will also work as the green on the par 4 14 if we ever approve and fund the change.

#4 was rebuilt in 1995 by Brian Silva, ruined the hole.

#6 was rebuilt in 1995 by Brian Silva, ruined the hole as well, this is a 135 yard hole with a green that is much too large.  Green was expanded by about 30% and the lump in the back half that sent balls over the back down a 9' bank was not included in the new design.  Nobody ever goes long today.

#17 is a new hole to fit in the practice area

 The suggestion of the short drop shot par three and uphill four would have added to the variety of the course.

Hopefully this will happen someday, I belive it will.  If nothing else we need to get some trees removed from the corner.

    This would break up the number of high tee shots-low landing area- high greensite  holes.

I thought we had too many blind tee shots personally

    You can take those high fescues and stick them.........

    I really think they work pretty well.  The area in between #5#8 is wet all year so rather than have a pond we have high grass that we play as a hazard.

   They have expanded to somewhat but they add to the visual element of the course.  Now I would prefer if they were all fine fescue and more whispy but I don't know enough to say that this could work everywhere.

   If you choose to change a hole for a driving range and not to take the bold advice on changing two holes ,what does that say about your restoration commitment?

   We had a shinking membership and the lack of a practice area was our main sticking point with attracting more of the fun loving guys you met in the grill room.  Ask any member that grew up there if they could live with out a driving range and the answer was probably yes.  But without a pool or tennis and just golf you need a place to practice.  Toll Brothers would have been the next most likely solution.

  Restoration only passed by one vote.  It went so badly last time with Brian Silva people were scared off.

  Part of the problem is Ross drew it both ways, but ultimately I think this may come to pass as well.  Fixing the rest of the course first is of higher priority.

  It's time for Mr. Sweeney to stop lurking on here and join the site.  I recommended he begin with his thread idea " The best drunk golfer ".

Agreed

[Mike_Trenham]

TE Paul

This is my understanding of the St Davids Drexell Paul saga.

AJ Drexell Paul was an early and influential member at St Davids and Merion probably other clubs as well...

We started at one location in 1897 with a members constructed course.  Land was leased.  The owner a lady was shocked when the men were playing golf on sunday mornings and drinking on the property.  

So we moved to a property in Radnor split by the old Lincoln Highway.  This property too was leased.  It also flooded every spring making about 6 holes unplayable.  About 1919 The board started looking into moving because they were afraid of losing their lease on the ground.  AJ Drexell Paul apparently took on the project with his own money.  He found a great site an put an option on the ground.  The members got cold feet as the property owner had just agreed to extended the lease.  At this point Paul probably fed up exercised his option and got together a group forming Gulph Mills Golf Club.  

The most laughable thing is that one of the reasons sited why the member did not like the property was the although the train line was close there was not a station nearby.  As if with AJ Drexell Paul could not get that accomplished!  And he did for GMGC.

So around 1924 we find and buy the property near the Paul estate and formerly part of the Paul estate.  I belive Mr. Paul even helped the club negotiate this deal as he was still a member of SDGC.

Around 1979 someone in the Paul family wanted to sell off some property along St Davids and Upper Gulph Road.  They entered negotiations with Victor Mauch club president for many years.  The members could not agree how to utilize the ground.  I remember walking around on the property one cold day with my Dad trying to see if we could make a range work or reroute a few holes, Bill Kittleman was probably there as well.

This is where folklore takes over Victor comes back and says the deal is off they won't sell us the property because they don't want a range adjacent to their home.  There were also some rumors of request of an easement which may have allowed them use of the course.  

Anyhow, let Tony know there is a open offer if he wants to play St. Davids.  I'll put together a nice group of people that he can speak well of...

[Mike_Trenham]

Now all TEPaul owns is the chicken farm next to the course

Wrong property but that guy loves us as well.  Made us put a slight turn into our #12 as too many golf balls hit his barn.  Did not really hurt the hole at all may have improved it.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

That's an interesting chronicle. You're probably much more familiar with it all than I would be. I'm sure your dad knows the details as well as anyone.

Only oddity is A.J. Drexel Paul and his group from Merion founded GMGC in 1916.

As for that 1979 thing, I don't know what that was with the Pauls or where that land was on their place. Could it have been what is now the residential area known as Fox Chapel or perhaps that smaller residential area that may be adjacent to your 14th hole?

Whatever it was the sale of that land was probably precipitated by my Dad who hated Philadelphia, hated his father etc and wanted out of his part of that place. He left Philadelphia in the 1940s and never wanted to come back.

The reason he had a part of that place is my grandmother, Mrs A.J. Drexel Paul, was sort of a financial genius and visionary and back in the early 1950s she bought up all the houses along the property borders on St David's road, Gulph Road and Brower Lane and turned the whole thing (the whole place) into a corporation (it was called the Boxhill Corporation). When she and A.J died the whole thing went to their children. Tony's father and his aunt I think wanted to keep the whole thing together but my Dad wanted out and he probably forced that sale around then.

[TEPaul]

"Now all TEPaul owns is the chicken farm next to the course."

Mayday:

Maybe you're thinking of where I live which is about seven miles from St David's out in Willistown. I do live on a farm and my house is a converted chicken coop Maybe that's where you got the chicken farm part.
 
 

[TEPaul]

MikeT:

Regardless of all this long running odd history between the Pauls and St Davids. G.C. I really would like to see something worked out on that #13 dogleg corner that's apparently been so contentious for so long. The way I look at it there's plenty of win/win scenarios in that situation and in that area. It just has to be handled correctly. But first Tony has to be willing to listen. Maybe he will be and maybe he won't. I think St David's needs to look at it from his perspective first. Times and situations are always changing---that's for sure. I believe when I tried to speak with him about this the place was probating on to the next generation and that's not the time to be broaching real estate deals because that's when the IRS is really watching with their 55% estate taxation up their sleeve.  

[Mike_Trenham]

Tom:

All I want is to meet him and show him our club and that there are some good people at St. Davids.  I have some ideas on how we can work out a compromise that may fit everyone's needs.  We are fortunate to have some large properties as neighbors rather than just a bunch of starter homes like I live in.

I will call you soon to make the arrangements.  Thanks.

BTW I played with the club's lawyer today and alterted him of your inpending action

[TEPaul]

"BTW I played with the club's lawyer today and alterted him of your inpending action."

Which of my impending actions are you speaking of? To work out a win/win situation on the 13th's dogleg corner or to find a glitch in the 1919 sale and take over the golf club as my own?  

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