Is Desert Golf an Oxymoron?

[Mike Hendren]

I originally posted this under the Stone Eagle thread but moved it here to avoid a hi-jack.

I still "don't get" desert golf.  Is that okay?  Seriously?  Am I blinded by the fact that I hit the ball too far off line too often?  Isn't desert golf inherently penal?  

I fear that a desert course cannot be built that I'd like.  I'm not proud of that one bit.  Oh no, I am not.  

I'm missing something.  Help me out.

Mike
 

[Jim Thompson]

With all due respect and really not intending to offend at all.

Put the driver away you Americanized, brainwashed, power hitting, hard swinging, ball spraying, rattle snake courting, course blaming, desert architectural victim.

Move up a set off tees and hit clubs you can control, er, in your skill level, and you’ll really enjoy it!

Cheers!

JT

[PThomas]

I was going to reply to it and then it was gone!.....

sometimes it probably is inherently penal, Mike -- but I still really enjoy it...the views, the elevation (esp since I'm from the flat Midwest)

I think you could argue that in one sense it's not much different from an old farm that has been converted into a course

courses like We-Ko-Pa, Bears Best, and Estrella Mountain, where one is out there with nature, WITH NO HOUSING AROUND, esp if one is from a place with cold winters and one is there during that time feeling the warm sun:  I REALLY like it!

[cary lichtenstein]

Desert golf today is fashioned pretty much after Pine Valley, forced carries off the tee and sourrounded by desert on the right and left. It is really not too much fun if you spray the ball too much...that is the reality of it, and with only 80 or 90 acres of grassed land available, it is not going to change

[Tom_Doak]

Cary's description is pretty much correct.  It's hard to do something different-looking or different-playing when you are limited to a certain amount of turfgrass that means the desert will be prominently in play.

However, I don't think it's impossible to do a desert golf course a bit differently.  The Old Course at St. Andrews is a lot less than 90 acres of turf, and with the OB and gorse to the sides and in front of some tees, it might as well be desert.  The key is figuring out how to OVERLAP some of the wild hitter's buffer zones so that you can keep them in play while staying under the 90 acres.

Making the course shorter than 7000 or 7500 yards also helps immensely.  If you built a desert course the length of Rye or Swinley Forest, you could do pretty much anything you wanted with the turf.  (Or you could move up a tee, as Jim Thompson points out.)

[Mike Hendren]

Cary's description is pretty much correct.  It's hard to do something different-looking or different-playing when you are limited to a certain amount of turfgrass that means the desert will be prominently in play.

However, I don't think it's impossible to do a desert golf course a bit differently.  The Old Course at St. Andrews is a lot less than 90 acres of turf, and with the OB and gorse to the sides and in front of some tees, it might as well be desert.  The key is figuring out how to OVERLAP some of the wild hitter's buffer zones so that you can keep them in play while staying under the 90 acres.

Making the course shorter than 7000 or 7500 yards also helps immensely.  If you built a desert course the length of Rye or Swinley Forest, you could do pretty much anything you wanted with the turf.  (Or you could move up a tee, as Jim Thompson points out.)

Cary's Pine Valley analogy is indeed insightful.

Tom, would you deem the limitation of total turfed area an inherent site flaw?

In two trips around The Old Course I did not lose a single ball - not even close.  A sleeve per nine is the norm in the desert.   How often have we been told "play the desert as a lateral hazard?"  At The Old Course, you're either on the course or not. I can't hack the ball out of a rock pile.

Ask Brad Klein about the average time for a round during the senior amateur at Desert Forest.

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Boge- The time it took the AM's to get around DF was primarily due to their inability to read greens that are more than 1% grade.

It is amazing that you played DF and still feel all desert golf is oxymoronic.

[Mike Hendren]

Adam,

Desert Forest is outstanding - a pioneering golf course and exemplary golf club.  In the past forty years, has anyone built a desert course that is its equal?  I ask ernestly because I'm not qualified to opine.

It was a treat and privilege to play there.   By any criteria, its status is merited.  Nonethless, desert golf remains oxymoronic TO ME.  

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

The desert and a forest have the same affect on play - both preclude recovery and hide golf balls.  

[George Pazin]

I wouldn't say it's oxymoronic, more that it's ill suited for golfing morons like me and Mike.

Hopefully someday I'll play AS or Talking Stick to see if architects who are generally considered more forgiving offer the same leeway in the desert.

More likely I'll just seek out other options. And keep working on my game,

 

[Mike Hendren]

I wouldn't say it's oxymoronic, more that it's ill suited for golfing morons like me and Mike.

I am wounded.  

BTW, I l@k!d Talking Stick.  Quite roomy.

[George Pazin]

Sorry, Mike, shouldn't have lumped you in with the likes of me.

Wish my friends made plans for Talking Stick. Hopefully the next time I head to Phoenix I'll get to pick the courses.

[A_Clay_Man]

Bogie -

The desert and a forest have the same affect on play - both preclude recovery and hide golf balls.

That's not necessarily true. I've seen both have recoverability aspects, depending on site and maintenance practices. Take DF for i.e. The fantastic desert flora and fauna looked liked manicured surrounds. They could've choosen to manicure it differently, but for me iot was an essential part of the experience.

I suppose the real point is that you, and even the up and coming Mullah George Pazin, appears to have your own games (or lack thereof) as the basis for design criticism.

I'd urge you both, to try and grasp what is there gcawise, with the understanding that water in a desrt environ is a major consideration. Also, consider the sage advice of a well known golf gambling guru bookie, PLAY BETTER. In lieu of that, play forward.

Mike H. There are several unique designs that now reside in the desert, or high desert, environs. All anyone can ask is that any future ones, respect the craddle and screw the aesthetic sensibilities of those who can afford this sport more than us.

[George Pazin]

I speak not just for myself but for the legions of other bogey golfers out there. I don't think better players or architects really understand our games.

I am equally likely to hit a 275 yard drive or a 30 yard 7 iron. Well, not so much anymore, but prior to about 5 lessons ago I was. High handicap golfers don't need shorter tees, they need width and forgiving lateral areas.

[cary lichtenstein]

Desert
Mountain Desert
Mountain

I would have to agree with redanman completely that Mountain and Desert Mountain are inherently better than pure desert golf.

I think that for desert golf to work well on dead flat site, you need to move a pretty fair amount of dirt.

[Tom_Doak]

Cary:  Did you not like the North course at Talking Stick?  Or have you not seen it?  They did move a fair amount of earth there to make the drainage work, but it still has the feeling of being fairly flat.  I hate flat, but I thought it was a very interesting course nonetheless.

George P:  When you are working on tribal courses, you are not necessarily bound to the 90 acres of turf.  That's one reason Apache Stronghold was an attractive project to us.  I think there is 105-110 acres of turf there ... though none of it in very good shape, judging from the e-mails I get about it.

[cary lichtenstein]

Tom:

I've never played Talking Stick

C

[TEPaul]

Bogey Hendren:

I don't think desert golf is an oxymoron in how you seem to be viewing it which is how it plays.

But I do think desert golf is always inherently going to be an oxymoron in how it looks---that is if naturalism of the golf course to the surrounding land is a major consideration (which obviously it isn't in some ways in desert golf and never has been).

Architects can always flow their man-made "lines" in desert architecture naturally with the lines of the desert site but they sure as hell can't ever do a thing about the stark juxtaposition of grass to sand or rock strewn natural desert.

Even with architecture that's surrounded by vegetation of various sorts no architect can really hide the juxtaposition of the visual difference of a few necessary features of golf such as tees, fairways, greens and to some extent sand bunkers  to natural sites but they sure can make that juxtapositon a whole lot less visually stark than those necessary golf features are to a desert.

Max Behr did some of the best philosophizing ever about the extreme use of the appearance of naturalism of what an architect made to what he found on a raw site but even Behr had the good sense to make those few exceptions (tees, fairway, greens, sand bunkering on sites that does not naturally have sand and to some extent rough). Behr's philosophy was simply that an architect do the best he could to minimize that juxtapositon by blurring the dividing lines in various ways.

[Jason Topp]

I really enjoy desert golf.  It certainly is not natural but when well done the courses feature firm conditions, absolutely gorgeous natural surrondings, great natural undulations in the property and perfect weather (at least some time during the day, nearly every day of the year).  

The problem with such courses is that one hitting it wildly can shoot a million and the best strategy on tight courses is to dink it off the tee all day, which is not fun.  Nonetheless, it beats the heck out of the wall to wall grass courses built in Arizona prior to land use restrictions.  Also, more recent courses do a better job of making driver a more reasonable option off the tee.