[Andy Hughes]

I had the good fortune to play Columbia CC the other day.
When we got to number 16 my host told me that Bobby Jones (who had played there in the 1921 Open) returned during the construction of AGNC and played this hole over and over and that it was the genesis for the much-more famous 12th hole in the middle of Amen Corner.
Both holes play across water, to hour-glass shaped greens, with bunkers in the hillside over the green and azaleas dotting the hillside.  And as at ANGC, back right is a tougher shot.
Has anyone heard this story before? Does it sound plausible?

Here is the hole, taken from right of the green.

[Philippe Binette]

The ressemblance is evident...

never knew about that story...

[BCrosby]

Andy -

Interesting. I had not heard that story.

What sort of evidence does the club have that "during the construction of AGNC and played this hole over and over and that it was the genesis for the much-more famous 12th hole in the middle of Amen Corner"?

Are we talking newspaper accounts, member recollections, club notes?

I am not trying to be prosecutorial, just curious. This relates to something I am researching.

IM me if you prefer.

Bob

[Jim Franklin]

I had heard the story a few years ago and can see the similarities.

[Jason Mandel]

I used to caddy down the street at Chevy and I have heard the same story multiple times.

Wether it is true or not I do not know, but it seems to make a little bit of sense.

Jason

[T_MacWood]

No, I don't think so. The current version appears to be re-designed to look like ANGC-12. I suspect some of what we see is with work of Ault and Clark.

The original 16th at Columbia was modeled after the 12th at GCGC complete with same mounds on the green. The mounds were removed before the US Open in the early 20's. The pond was a stream that wrapped around in the front and the rightside, on the left side there was a depression or ditch, and the green was elevated sharply, bunkerless. Where as the 12th green at ANGC is shallow and wide, this green was narrow and deep.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Hmmm let this mystery continue. I like the plot lines so far.

[BCrosby]

Tom MacW -

Thanks. You amaze me. I owe you a beer.

Jones did make trips up the east coast several times during construction at ANGC, usually to attend US Opens, US Ams or other events. (There are newspaper accounts about the galleries following Jones even though he wasn't a player in the tournament they came to see. )

It is possible Jones visited Columbia at that time. But your research seems to put to rest the notion that he borrowed any architectural ideas. Even the earliest of MacK's sketches had the 12th pretty much the way it was built. So the Columbia connection struck me as a long shot in any event.

Bob  

[Marty Bonnar]

Andy,
Blah, blah, blah-de-blah. Let them all say what they will, the 12th at ANGC was CLEARLY born at Pitreavie...







Although obviously designed to play in the opposite direction, the Good Doctor knew a thing or two about diagonal hazarding and simply wallowed in repeating the challenge at every available opportunity.

FBD.

[Scott_Burroughs]

This aerial shows the angle of the green, which seems more
angled than #12 at ANGC.  Also seems the back portion is
much larger compared to the front than ANGC:



17 years ago, the front and rear bunkers didn't exist (back
middle bunker in current photo at top is obscured under the
tree in aerial above), although I don't know if they originally
existed and they took them out:

[Doug Braunsdorf]

No, I don't think so. The current version appears to be re-designed to look like ANGC-12. I suspect some of what we see is with work of Ault and Clark.

The original 16th at Columbia was modeled after the 12th at GCGC complete with same mounds on the green. The mounds were removed before the US Open in the early 20's. The pond was a stream that wrapped around in the front and the rightside, on the left side there was a depression or ditch, and the green was elevated sharply, bunkerless. Where as the 12th green at ANGC is shallow and wide, this green was narrow and deep.

Tom-

  Thank you for providing historical insight to this.  This was one of the holes that I looked at last summer with Tom P, Wayne, and Craig Disher.  I'll PM him to alert him of this thread.  I think he may have an earlier (Dallin-era) aerial of CCC.  

  The tee shot today is from much higher up than at ANGC--the tee at Columbia might be 20,30 feet above the green surface.  Augusta's 12 tee is what, about 10 feet above the surface of the green, correct?  

  The odd thing is, after finishing 15 (lower left of aerial), you cross the creek, climb the hill, and play 16.  You then walk back up the hill you just teed off from, and play 17, a very short, quirky par 4 of about 292 yards.  Direction for the tee shot is basically stright over the cartpath running through the top of the picture. The tees for 16 and 17 are in the same basic area.  

  Tom, do you know if the 17th of Columbia was part of Travis' original work there?  

[BCrosby]

Thanks, Scott, for the aerials. Great stuff.

Martin may be right about Pitreavie, however. There are clearly differences with the 12th at ANGC, but it is the same sort of shot from the tee.

Question for Martin and other denizens of the U.K.:

Are there a lot of courses in the U.K. built pre-1930 with greenside water as at Pitreavie? I would think it was very rare.

Bob

[Scott_Burroughs]

I seem to recall that when I did the AOTD of Stoke Park (Royal St. Marks in 'Goldfinger') in England, that their 7th hole was what was used as the model for #12 at ANGC.





http://www.worldgolf.com/course-reviews/england/stoke-park-club.htm

Stand on the seventh tee at Stoke Park Club and you get the feeling you might be thousands of miles away.
Like on the famed 12th hole at Augusta National Golf Club, one-third of the dreaded "Amen Corner," named by Herbert Warren Wind of Sports Illustrated in 1958.

"When H.S. Colt designed what was then Stoke Poges Club (which opened in 1908), Alistair MacKenzie was his assistant," explained Stuart Collier, head golf professional at Stoke Park. "MacKenzie used the design from our No. 7 for No. 12 at Augusta."

 
A quarter of a century later, MacKenzie was commissioned by the great Bobby Jones to design a course on the site of an old nursery in Augusta, GA, where Jones founded the Masters, a tournament that has grown to rival Britain's venerable Open Championship.

When MacKenzie reached a pocket of land in Augusta framed by tall trees and bisected by Rae's Creek, he obviously remembered his days at Stoke Poges with Colt, who also designed revered Pine Valley Golf Club in New Jersey "acclaimed as the finest course in the United States."

"If you put pictures of the holes side by side, you might or might not see the resemblance," Collier said. "But they play very similarly. It's a three-club green, depending on the wind, which makes for a very scary tee shot. Anything that leaks right is in the stream, left is in the bunker and long is real trouble in the bushes or the back trap leaving a bunker shot downhill with water behind."

[BCrosby]

Great catch Scott.

Does Stoke Poges Club pre-date Pitreavie?

Bob

[T_MacWood]

The par-3 at Stoke Poges was the model for the old 16th at ANGC.

[Scott_Burroughs]

The par-3 at Stoke Poges was the model for the old 16th at ANGC.

I was just reporting what Stoke Park had on their web site,
as well as other "golf sites' info".

But, I can see more of a resemblance to the original #16 (bottom) than of #12:

[BCrosby]

Tom is correct. MacK says as much in his notes on the 16th in the innaugural Masters program.

I'm still curious about the 12th. I am unaware of any references by MacK or Jones about its origins. Does anyone have anything? Pitreavie seems to have at least a kissin' cousin relationship with the 12th.

I've always wondered about the overlap of MacK's 12th and the orginal 16th. They would have looked a played somewhat similarly, if not repetitively. Both short par 3's, both over the same creek at simialr angles, both with similar looks, both appearing pretty close together on the course. Certainly there were some differences. The old 16th green was set at more of an angle and slightly shorter. But the similarites are clear.

I wonder how much of Jones's decision to change the 16th in'49 to its present configuration was due to  those sorts of concerns.

Bob

[Andy Hughes]

I am not trying to be prosecutorial, just curious. This relates to something I am researching.

Sorry Bob, looks like nothing but a nice legend

The original 16th at Columbia was modeled after the 12th at GCGC complete with same mounds on the green. The mounds were removed before the US Open in the early 20's. The pond was a stream that wrapped around in the front and the rightside, on the left side there was a depression or ditch, and the green was elevated sharply, bunkerless. Where as the 12th green at ANGC is shallow and wide, this green was narrow and deep.

TomMac, thanks for the insight and history.  Any chance you have a pic of the original hole laying about?
Also, are you also going to tell me the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist as well?

Blah, blah, blah-de-blah. Let them all say what they will, the 12th at ANGC was CLEARLY born at Pitreavie...

FBD, you may be right, and on the plus side, this is one of the first times I actually understood one of your posts!

This aerial shows the angle of the green, which seems more
angled than #12 at ANGC.  Also seems the back portion is
much larger compared to the front than ANGC:

Scott, you are correct on both counts.

The tee shot today is from much higher up than at ANGC--the tee at Columbia might be 20,30 feet above the green surface.  Augusta's 12 tee is what, about 10 feet above the surface of the green, correct?  

Doug, this isn't necessarily right. There are several tees at CCC, and the one we played was actually almost on at the same level as the green--it was to the left of the hill you are referring to, closer to the prior green.
I am not sure the tee at 12 at ANGC is any higher than the green, but I could be wrong about that. Can players even see their balls after they hit the green?

I wonder how much of Jones's decision to change the 16th in'49 to its present configuration was due to  those sorts of concerns.

Bob, I think he changed it to more mimic what the 16th at Columbia would look like someday and instill false pride in the membership.

[Bill_McBride]

I used to play at Columbia quite a bit in the late 80's and early 90's, and remember #16 as playing from a much different angle than the first photo, which is from the side, perhaps at #17 tee, rather from the 16th tee.  The hole actually plays parallel to the water hazard and at right angles to the bridge.

Of course that was quite a while ago and I might be suffering from selective dementia.  But that's my recollection.

It is a fine hole, just not played from the angle in that photo.

#17 is one of the most fun holes ever.  4-iron out in front of the steep hill, SW up on top, literally run up the hill to see where you wound up!  Then the long and difficult, uphill 18th to round off the match.  Another set of back to back 1/2 par holes, isn't golf great!

[Ian Andrew]

Very interesting thread. Is there actually an influence ever mentioned by MacKenzie or Jones, or is this a pure original ?


Mr MacWood, I tip my hat to you sir.

[Paul_Turner]

No, no, you're all wrong.  How about Mack's 9th hole at Oakdale near Leeds?

[TEPaul]

Wow! This sure is a "research capable" website. The "combacks" on this thread sure feel impressive. Tom MacWood's post #5 is very impressive. I wouldn't challenge that one with a ten foot pole. Not yet anyway.  

[Kyle Harris]

I always likened 12 at ANGC to be a variant of the Road Hole green... with the two back bunkers being the "Road"

Of course, 12 at ANGC ONLY takes an aerial approach.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

While those two bunkers to the right of #9 Oakdale may be "safety" bunkers (to protect the next tee) they are perhaps the blandest looking bunkers I've ever seen on a golf course. No wonder, they don't look any more interesting on the drawing either.

[Andy Hughes]

It is a fine hole, just not played from the angle in that photo

Bill, you are correct. That picture was taken from very near the next tee (though it wouldn't play badly from that direction either ).

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