The 18th hole at two ancient courses

[TEPaul]

I didn't want to sidetrack the 18th hole at TOC scoring roll-call thread but I'd like to ask because I've never been to TOC---how those who've been to both would compare and contrast the short open 18th at TOC to the short open 18th at North Berwick?

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

On the card, I'd say NB's 18th is 50 yards shorter, playing even more so from the elevated tee as opposed to the gradual climb up the 18th at The Old Course.  More importantly, the 18th at NB is best approached from short left, where the fairway is level and the pitch shot runs straight down the length of the green.  In other words left is not merely the safer line, but the preferred one.  

That, and there is no insurance policy embedded in the green fee at The Old Course.  

[Sean Leary]

I agree with Mike.  It's pretty similar though, coming back into town.  If you hit it right, though, you are apt to land in the parking lot rather than Rusacks....

[mike_beene]

Agree N Berwick is shorter.I think the green is a little elevated but the hole seems a little downhill.The town feels a little farther away.Like the difference in a stadium with a track vs one with the stands right on the field,if that makes any sense.

[ChipOat]

A bit off-topic, but Prestwick's finale is even less inspiring than TOC or NB, IMO.  Machrahanish (spell?) is pretty forgettable, too.  Nairn is OK but not great.  Dornoch is pretty good, I think.

Do real links just fit #18 into the routing to get back to the clubhouse?

If yes, then presume U.S. routings must logically do the same.  Why do there seem to be so many more really good finishers in America?  Examples = PB, Merion, PVGC, WFGC, Riviera.  Inverness' and CPC's #18 are no great shakes but those seem to be the exceptions as many (most?) "great" U.S. course seem to have memorable finishing holes.

Coincidence?

[NAF]

I have a little ditty on the 18th at Berwick.

I was one down to my competitor there on 18 tee.. He hit 3 wood short of the green.. I pulled out my driver, proceeded to miss the cars but slice it off the wall on the right which technically is OB ? and the ball skipped back in play to 8 feet.. I lipped out the eagle but halved the match with birdie.. Now that was fun!

[TEPaul]

Chip Oat said;

"A bit off-topic, but Prestwick's finale is even less inspiring than TOC or NB, IMO.  Machrahanish (spell?) is pretty forgettable, too.  Nairn is OK but not great.  Dornoch is pretty good, I think.

Do real links just fit #18 into the routing to get back to the clubhouse?

If yes, then presume U.S. routings must logically do the same.  Why do there seem to be so many more really good finishers in America?  Examples = PB, Merion, PVGC, WFGC, Riviera.  Inverness' and CPC's #18 are no great shakes but those seem to be the exceptions as many (most?) "great" U.S. course seem to have memorable finishing holes.

Coincidence?"

Chip:

Maybe that is off topic somewhat but a very interesting point and comparison nonetheless. Some of the 18th holes of the courses you mentioned in Europe are very old and obviously were simply finishing points that were fixed for obvious reasons---the point in the town of St Andrews the course begins and ends is older stil (fixing the 18th hole of TOC)l.

But in America the routings probably had far more latitude and consequently 18th holes too. At the point architecture began to be dedicatedly made in America (routings) in the 20th century the idea of basically the last word (18th) was perhaps the most important word had become part of the mindset of golf architecture.

[TEPaul]

NAF:

That story of yours on the 18th at North Berwick reminds me of the first hole in one I ever saw. I was a kid of about 12 playing with another 12 year old at Piping Rock and on the 11th hole (the par 3 Eden) the other kid popped up his tee shot, it hit the road about half way to the hole took an enormous bounce, landed on the green and went in the hole.

[Brad Tufts]

Does the "open" or bland status of several of Scotland's finishing holes have anything to do with the heightened focus over the centuries on match play?  The penultimate holes in most matches are holes 15-17, where one player is trying to close the deal, and the other tries to gamble to take the match to 18, or to taks his opponent to extra holes.  

At TOC, 15-16 test accuracy with drives between bunkers and boundary lines, and of course #17 has match play elements of whether a player plays for 4 or 5.  At Prestwick, 15 and 16 are short, tight holes, with possible disaster awaiting just off the fairway on 15 (gorse, whins) and just over the 16th green (cardinal bunker), and 17 is the famous alps hole, where the approach and placement on the sloping green is important.  I have never been to North Berwick, but I will say that the pics I've seen of the 16th green seem to indicate there is some strategy involved.

In the US, there is a higher focus on stroke play, and the 18th hole stands as the final test (Tom's idea of the last word).  There are some exceptions to every rule, but many courses, especially those that have hosted championships, end invariably end with a 450+ yard par four.

I have been to 21 courses in Scotland and Ireland, and many seem to follow the trend of a weaker (in comparison with the rest of the round) 18th hole:

Weaker: Ballybunion, Rosses Point, Enniscrone, Tralee, Prestwick, Royal Montrose, TOC, the New Course, Cruden Bay

Medium (for sake of discussion, not character-building): Carne, Connemara, Waterville, Duke's Course (parkland), Nairn, Western Gailes

Strong: Leven, Moray-Old, Royal Aberdeen, Dornoch, the Jubilee course

So, only 4 of 21 have particularly strong finishers, and I think you will find that many of those in the weaker and medium categories will have great stretches of holes in the middle of their back nines!    

-Brad

[Mike Benham]

18th North Berwick ...

Shorter ... yes
Downhill ... yes

And the 18th at Prestwick is not as open as TOC or NB ...

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, you are exactly right about the location of the sunken pro shop wide left of the 18th at North Berwick!  I stood on the tee there a week ago with the green well within range, downhill, downwind, dry and firm, 280 yds away.  I had just parred 14 Perfection, 15 Redan, 16 Gate (the swale hole), and 17 Point Garry In, and was pumped up.  Solid controlled swing with the driver, aiming for a little cut from the left side.  I guess I tightened up, because I double crossed, the ball hooked wildly left and I wound up at the bottom of the chain link fence sunken behind that pro shot, 50 yds left and almost hole high.  A drop, a pitch and two putts later, bogey.  Rats.  

The finishing holes at North Berwick are super, starting with the 13th Pit hole, with the green tucked between a wall and a sand dune.  I think it may be as much fun as any six holes in golf.

[Mike Benham]

The finishing holes at North Berwick are super, starting with the 13th Pit hole, with the green tucked between a wall and a sand dune.  I think it may be as much fun as any six holes in golf.

[Bill_McBride]

Great photo, Mike.  Is that young John K?  

[Mike Benham]

Great photo, Mike.  Is that young John K?  

Yes it is ...

[Robert Thompson]

I think the biggest concern a golfer faces at the 18th at Berwick is not pushing one into the windshield of a car on the right of the fairway. In fact, the pro tip in the yardage book says, "concentrate - car repairs are expensive." I managed to hit the green with a 3-iron in both my rounds at Berwick.
That said, the wider fairway at the TOC meant I was never really thinking about the right side of the 18th there.

A lot of links courses, in my estimation, have weak closers necessitated by the need to head back to the clubhouse. I'm thinking of Murcar, TOC, Crail, and even Muirfield, whose 18th has a neat green and fine bunkering, but isn't really that interesting from the tee.

[Doug Siebert]

Hmmm, I was definitely thinking about all that glass at the Rusacks when I was on #18 tee at TOC last time, since I'd just pushed one OB on #16 and that was still fresh in my mind!  I aimed it down Shivas' "boring line" just left of the green.  It may be an easy birdie for the pros, but that chip when you just left of the ridge of the VOS and have to play right across that spine sure wasn't for me, though most of the pros ended up just a little short or a little long of the particular spot I was in.  Either they can control their distance from 350 REALLY well or I just got unlucky with where I finished.

I didn't really think about the car park to the right at #18 at NB.  I remember complaining before when some people brought it up on GCA that it would give me more to worry about I hadn't worried about previously.  But DAMN, I certainly didn't think about the sunken pro shop to catch a duck hook!  Thanks a lot for giving me a lot more mental stress next time I'm on that tee, guys

[Mike_Cirba]

That's not the John K. who used to frequent this site?  

[Mike Benham]

That's not the John K. who used to frequent this site?  

No, it is not JakaB ...


And a funny thing about the car park down the side, when we finally found North Berwick, we were a little late for the tee time, zipped down the little road and were surprised to find a parking slot relatively near the first tee ... little did we know why