Sand Hills vs. Kingsley Club

[Jim Franklin]

For those that have played both, I was wondering what your thoughts are. I played Kingsley this past weekend and was blown away by the whole experience. The routing of the front nine could be some of the best I have seen. The greens were terrific, the short par 4 13th was very cool. Different than #7 at Sand Hills as the green at Kingsley was huge with some large undulations. Great risk/reward hole. Thoughts?

[NAF]

Jim-

My rounds at the Kingsley Club rank among my top 3-4 for most fun ever.  It is as much fun as playing NGLA in my book.  I owe a lot to Mike DeVries for being such a good host, I loved the course so much I thought about becoming a national member but alas I cannot travel to Traverse City enough to justify it.  If I lived in Chicago, I would definitely be there in an eyeblink.

For me there are so many shots to love:
*The 2nd shot into the bottle neck at #1
*The great short par 3 at the 2nd
*The hogback drive at #4
*Bouncing a mid iron of the surround terrain at the par 3, 5th-you can bank shots here
*Trying to drive the green at #6--I've come close!
*Playing #9 from the different tees requiring different shots
*The tee shot and naturalness of the 12th which has no bunkers
*Trying to putt through the bowl on #13 and pick the correct strategy and never walking off with birdie.
*The devious tiny green at #15 and firing a long iron in there
*Trying to hit a slinky draw and hold the green at the modified redan 16th
*Watching your ball race down the crest of the hill on #17 to leave you a short iron in and possible eagle shot.

Kingsley is in my personal top 20.  I know some will disagree with me but it is a top 100 golf course, Digest, Golf or GW (already highly rated there)

Now Sand Hills is a different kettle of fish.. I don't think they are comparable except to say they represent the finest virtues of an ancient and historic game in a modern format.

[Jim Franklin]

NAF -
The green at 15 was awesome for such a long hole. I hooked my tee shot into the trees, punched out to 150, and hit a nine iron to a foot. My opponent hit a good drive, missed the green left(barely), and couldn't get up and down.

I also think it is worthy of top 100, and is top 20 in my list. I do, however, think the courses are very comparable.

[NAF]

Well they are comparable in they are fun, pseudo links style, firm and fast, classically inspired golf courses.. But as much as I love the terrain (the kettle domes on the front 9 and the hardwood forest on the back) at TKC, Sand Hills makes you feel like one is playing on the Moon.

[TEPaul]

I think both courses are really terrific---both very unique. If there were any holes on either I wasn't that crazy about it was #4 SH and #15 KC and both for the same reason---eg very long par 4s with sort of odd "shelved" greens that looked out of place to me in their topographical and natural environemnt. They say all the greens at SH cost about $300 each to build but #4 took about $40,000. The 15th at Kingsley looked similar to me except it's on the right rather thant the left . I'm not sure why the general natural contours at the green-end of both weren't used more.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jim Franklin,

Glad to hear you made it to the Kingsley Club.  It's truly a wonderful golf course and a very special place in God's country.  I LOVE it.

Tom Paul,

I'm a HUGE fan of the 15th at TKC.  It's stark, it's unfair, and it's brilliant!  It brings to mind Tom Doak's quote of "who says a par four can't mean a chip and a putt?"  

[Geoffrey Childs]

I LOVE both courses.

As Noel said, SH is absolutely unique.  Wake up there and you might go looking for your passport or your space ship to see what planet you are on.

As for the Kingsley Club- The front nine is world class and among the greatest nines in the US.  I'll address the back nine because some in the past have criticisized it.  #10 is perhaps the only ordinary hole on the course.  #11 is traditional but a very solid 3 par.  #12 really does remind one of 14 at Shinnecock and perhps the fairway could have been expanded out to the left to increase angles and options but its a teriffic hole as is.  #13 is to me world class short par 4 (drivable as I reached the front left fringe) yet perhaps a green more severe then #9 at Yale or its neighbor #13 at Crystal Downs. I loved #15 as Mike Cirba described.  Why be so formuleic and criticize a superb green complex at the end of a 450 yard hole?  The redanish 16 works well and the landform on the 17th is well utilized.  Finally, the transition from the forrest to the linksy terrain on #18 make you wish you were heading back to the first tee.  After a quick bite to eat that's exactly what we did!

No need to pit Sant Hills vs. KC.  They both have their place at and near the top of my favorite places to play.

[Mike_Cirba]

As usual, Ran's description of the hole from the Course Profile is spot on.

15th hole, 455 yards: A wonderful example of a 'half-par' hole and at just the right stage of the round, the 15th never lets the player become comfortable. First, the tee shot is an awkward one for most players, as the hole bends to the left but the fairway slopes to the right, almost requiring a draw off the tee. The tee shot will often hit into the slope of the fairway, reducing any roll and leaving the player with a long-iron or fairway wood to the smallest green on the course, raised several feet and blended into the hillside to the right. Some people have criticized the hole as being too difficult, but it is one of the authors’ favorites on the course. As there is no great danger to get into from the tee and miles of fairway left of the green, it is difficult to score worse than a 5. Likewise, the player who gives the hole some thought and is able to executive a good chip has a good chance to make his 4. A player who misses the green short or to the left will face a recovery shot somewhat similar to that on the 14th at Royal Dornoch; no one ever complains that Foxy is 'unfair'! The one legitimate claim some have about the green is that it was built up and created, while all the other green sites were essentially 'found.' Still, full marks to the hole.



The thing I think I love most about it is that it breaks all of the preconceived notions about green size relating directly to length of approach.  That, and the green itself is tremendous.

[Jim Franklin]

Maybe I didn't title the thread properly as I wouldn't want to choose between the two, but I just wanted to hear from people that have played both to see if I was nuts to like them equally. I am glad to see I am not crazy, but sorry to see some of the ratings magazines are a little off base. Hopefully, more GD guys will get out to Kingsley and experience that terrific course.

[George Pazin]

Jim, we just think you're nuts for liking implants.

Thanks for posting the clip from Ran's profile, Mike. It's interesting to me that Mike D chose to build up a green. How severe is that surrounding land? Too severe to have simply kept the original as a greensite?

One of the most amazing things about Oakmont to me is that if you look at some of the greensites, they just look like there is no way a ball would stay on the green at the speeds they maintain. Yet they do.

I'd kind of say that the same thing about some of Lehigh's greens. There is a par 4 going up the hillside, #8 I think ?, that just has an amazing tilt to it.

[Jimmy Muratt]

I have yet to visit Sand Hills so I can't comment on it.  But, I absolutely love the Kingsley Club.  It presents such a unique type of golf for the US.  Many courses claim to utilize the "ground game" but Kingsley really comes through with it.  Many of the holes there require you to bounce the ball in or use angles to get close to the hole.  

An excellent example of the uniqueness of Kingsley is the approach shot to #3.  A fellow GCA'er, Dan Taylor, had hit a good tee shot and was left with a mid-iron to the green.  The pin was on the right side of the green.  Dan hit his approach shot to short of the left side of the green.  It proceeded to bounch onto the green, catch the ridge and work it's way around the bunker fronting the middle of the green and trickled down to the pin on the right of the green.  It ended up about 5 feet away and was just a "fun" shot to witness.  It's just the type of golf you don't see much in the States.

The front nine has been well documented and is wonderful.  I think the back is great as well.  It definitely has a few more just "good" holes as opposed to excellent or world class.  But, it still possesses many unique golf holes.  A few of my favorites on the back nine:

#11, I think this is an excellent par 3, especially with a back right pin position.  It may not be as visually dramatic as the others but is a great hole.
#12, beautiful tee shot to the valley below, the hillside on the right is definitely in play and not a place to miss.
#13, one of my favorite short par 4's in golf.  Just a wonderful hole with options galore.  
#14, From the back tee, a difficult tee shot if you choose to carry it over the bunkers on the right.  If you succeed, the hole is reachable in two.  The green has many subtle breaks in it though that aren't seen at first.
#15, An excellent tough par 4.  A solid tee shot is required to be able to reach or stop the ball on the crowned green.  
#16, very good Redan built into the side of the hill.  It's a very natural looking Redan and extremely fun to watch a ball that lands 20 yards right of the green feed down to the hole.

[Mike_Cirba]

Maybe I didn't title the thread properly as I wouldn't want to choose between the two, but I just wanted to hear from people that have played both to see if I was nuts to like them equally. I am glad to see I am not crazy, but sorry to see some of the ratings magazines are a little off base. Hopefully, more GD guys will get out to Kingsley and experience that terrific course.

Jim,

Not to pick on GD, but not only don't they have Kingsley ranked in the Top 100 courses in the country, I'm not even sure they are in the Top 20 in Michigan!!

That's preposterous, as I'm sure you'd heartily agree.  

[Jim Franklin]

GD has Kingsley at #20 in Michigan which I am ashamed to say. I feel it will certainly rise in '07 as I know a few GD guys that have recently played there that really liked it a lot (me included).

[Steve Lang]

Jim, we just think you're nuts for liking implants.

.. It's interesting to me that Mike D chose to build up a green. How severe is that surrounding land? Too severe to have simply kept the original as a greensite?

Hey George..  ..

I guess everybody has pretty well jumped on TEP for his remark on TKC #15.. the #15 green & surrounds are at the end of a gradual or mild upslope compared to many areas at TKC..  I didn't think of it as severe around the green.. not like it would roll back down the faiway 30 yards type severe...

.. when we played there, my approach ran on and then off to left.. I putted up onto the green and took my 4 and started worrying about #16..

[Brian Cenci]

Kingsely Club is a great course and GD having it as #20 in Michigan alone is an absolute joke...anyways, I think that it's strength are the greens and the routing...both are tremendous.  Course continually keeps you guessing and you have to use every shot in the book.  The reason I like the course is you never walk up to a shot and know what you're going to hit or where.  Each shot requires thought in order to properly analyze where to go.  So many slopes and nuances on the course that it always keeps the course challenging and exciting each time played.  #9....what a monster green.  I made par there earlier this year after I missed the green to the right and putted a 30 yd. shot to a from left pin location (where the thumb sticks out).

[Matt_Ward]

The Kingsley Club is one of the most unique and fun places to play golf that I have experienced. The design by Mike DeVries grabs your attention from the first tee and simply keeps you at such a high level throughout the round -- minus the letdown at #10 and #11 which I see as being the only clear weak designed holes.

The "fun" element is present on a range of shots that NAF has already mentioned. And, I really enjoyed the long par-4 15th -- what a delicious green that suffers no fools.

How Digest fails to list the course among the top 5 in Michigan and among the top 50 in the USA is beyond me.

In my personal listing of courses The Kingsley Club makes the top 50 without any sweat.

[ed_getka]

Brian,
   I would have loved to have seen that putt up out of what I call the Devil's Cauldron to that front pin position. You have some serious touch to pull that one off.

 Kingsley is one of my favorite courses, and of modern courses that I have seen I only put Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes ahead of it.

[Brian Cenci]

ed getka,
     I actually did it earlier this year with about 30-40 people watching me at the Annual Spring Outing (#9 was our finishing hole).  I grew up at Crystal Downs so putting from great distances and up hills as approaches is my specialty (my token shot is #8 at Crystal Downs from the front left valley at 30 yards out to the green with the putter).

-Brian