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redanman

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2002, 08:38:57 AM »
Tommy

A rousing perusal or a tyop.  You decide.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2002, 08:48:33 AM »
Mike: i never heard anything about coming in to the property in any different way - that was his buddy's property over there. In fact I think the old proshop was a building that belonged to Sabin and they just carted it in in the early days.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Charles_P.

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2002, 10:36:57 AM »

Quote
On National, when they built the road to the "new" clubhouse, was there ever any thought to bringing it in off of Sebonac i.e. through Bayberry ?

Mike-

I'm sure George will correct me (please do), but it's always been my understanding that the road that caused the modification of 14 was mandated by the town of Southampton to provide public access to the Bay and there wasn't a choice to be made where they could route it.

-Charles
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2002, 10:45:36 AM »
Charles - never read it anyplace but it makes sense to me - perhaps a combination of a few things - I know CB wrote about the traffic problems and distractions of everyone driving thru the middle of the course as more and more play developed

He solved a lot of other problems with the new road - you had to walk across the 18th fairway to get to the beachclub - there was a problem of traffic from the old yacht basin to the clubhouse - the 14th needed lengthening as did the 17th

(and he got a new set of gates donated by his friend George Bourne and got his name put on them - the other set of gates were donated by Willie Vanderbilt and were know as the "Vanderbilt Gates" - you have to know this man, CBM,  of "little ego" - hah - loved his name on the new gates)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2002, 06:02:20 AM »
George:

Not since Bradley Klein's "Discovering Donald Ross" have I seen such a superb and fine example of how to honor a person's memory and work, but do it in such a stylish manner!

I am about 1/3 through with your book and I can't wait to get back to it!  

Kudos!! :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jack

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2002, 01:51:56 PM »
The Evangelist of Golf  and America's Linksland are offered for sale at my web site:

www.LongIslandGolfNews.com

It is a shame what you guys have been paying for these books.

Please drop by and take a look.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bradley Anderson

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2002, 07:44:59 PM »
Mr. Bahto,

I have just finished your book. Much of it I have read over a second time.

Thank you for taking me to places that I may never get the opportunity to see or play.

I am a greenkeeper just up the road from Tim Davis at Shoreacres. The first time I saw Shoreacres was in 1982, and it was more golfish than anything I had ever seen. I realized that there was something very special here. It was 10 years before I learned who the architect was, but that moment started my interest in golf course architecture.

Your book has filled in a lot of gaps in my understanding of these great golf holes. Thank you.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2002, 08:52:56 PM »
I hope Paul Richards isn't suffering a form of "time compression." To write "not since" regarding the Ross book when it's all of one year old sure puts a lot of pressure on us writers to produce ever newer work. (Paul, you know I took no offense at that.) Actually, I think Sleeping Bear/Clock Tower deserves some credit here for encouraging us all to write these things and ensuring that they'll back it with quality production and distribution.

If I may express two dissenting views on the Macdonald book. I would love to have read more about the lives, character and social networks of these strange characters. George and Gib suggest some curiosities about Macdonald, but there's so much unmined here regarding CB's role in American golf, as well as the stunningly contrasting nature of Seth Raynor. I know it's an architecture book, and perhaps the material wasn't as readily available to do this kind of exploration as it was for Ross. But I kept wanting to know more about them as people and as visionaries.

The drawings are wonderful - excellent representations of strategic intent. Goodness, what a skill to be able to draw like that, George. But I have a secondary concern about the decision to use the same photos twice. I found about 20 photos that appear twice in the book, the bulk of them large format and color, and most of them of NGLA. I wonder why you opted to use the same photos when illustrating both the hole types as well as the later chapter hole-by-hole of NGLA. I rather wish you had relied upon a wider range of examples, and yes, perhaps of better quality.

Please don't think I'm condemning the book. On the contrary, I think it's a great contribution to the literature of classical design. But in the spirit of friendly criticism I think these issues worth discussing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Bahto

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2002, 09:51:16 PM »
Brad - thank you

about the double photos: Clock Tower was rushed getting this out and in that mad scamble because of the change in ownership, some of the corrections did not get done during thaose last few weeks - I was told there could be no more changes after I noticed the duplications - I agree - it really looks stupid

and a couple of the drawings were enlarged and the lines became too broad and ugly - again I was unable to get them to change things because they had gotten so behind

also - a lot of material was held back for the book on National

about the depth of info on Raynor - fella, there is none - what you see is all there is

Macdonald we will explore more in the NGLA book - again thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2002, 10:20:45 PM »
George,

Congrats on a great book, it's a worthy addition to every golfer's collection.  

When are you planning to release the upcoming book on NGLA?



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2002, 05:08:41 AM »
Brad:

Actually, I am not suffering from some type of "time compress".  ;) I have read quite a few books on golf and golf architecture in the intervening time, so it may seem like a much longer period to me than the actual dates on the calendar.

Either way, both your book and George's are excellent and comprehensive examinations of the individuals who have contributed so much to gold course architecture and to the discussions on this web site.

 :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike Hendren

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2002, 09:03:07 AM »
George,

Your reply to Brad's friendly criticism highlights the book's quirks. Quirkiness seem entirely appropriate given the subject matter.  

Santa was good to me and I am enjoying your work immensely.  Kudo's to you and Gib.  

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2002, 11:07:27 AM »
Brad Klein said;

"If I may express two dissenting views on the Macdonald book. I would love to have read more about the lives, character and social networks of these strange characters. George and Gib suggest some curiosities about Macdonald, but there's so much unmined here regarding CB's role in American golf, as well as the stunningly contrasting nature of Seth Raynor. I know it's an architecture book, and perhaps the material wasn't as readily available to do this kind of exploration as it was for Ross. But I kept wanting to know more about them as people and as visionaries."

This is such a great point! Obviously there was plenty of material about MacDonald's life, his idiocyracies etc, his influences on all things to do with American golf but as Brad surmised that aspect of the man could be so voluminous as to appear virtually unmined, at this point.

MacDonald is often called the "Father of architecture" or at least the "Father of American architecture" but he was definitely so much more than that!

When one considers his age, born in 1859, the time when he became transfixed by TOC and the entire ethos of Scotish golf, 1872, as well as his so-called "dark years" when he had nowhere to play in America, or to even discuss golf in America, 1875-1892 (18 years), one can begin to see that C.B. MacDonald should definitely not just be called the "Father or American golf architecture" but the "Father of American golf".

He certainly was the "Evangelist of Golf (in America) but few seem to really realize just how much he alone may have not only started it all over here but how singly he was responsible for fostering golf and architecture in this country in so many ways!

So it does seem a wealth of not only material about him that may be unmined but certainly a greater wealth of understanding that needs to be mined!

In researching for a book on William Flynn, everywhere we turn to do with people who influenced Flynn--Geo Crump, Hugh Wilson etc, some of the earliest producers of good architecture in America, it's apparent that before they even waded into the thinking for their projects, they consulted C.B. MacDonald to one extent or another.

We even found an amazing wealth of material on Hugh Wilson, who with two men from the US Dept of Agriculture created the USGA's Green section. But before Wilson contacted those two men, (Piper and Oakley), in 1911, C.B. MacDonald had been there before him--and proceeded to advise Wilson on agronomy.

And certainly not the least of all of this unmined information would be the highly unusual personality of MacDonald. Could another man with a different personality have done all that he did? I doubt it!

Clearly, there may be some darker areas to him as well. Herculean egoism, arguments, possibly physical fights, orgiastic womanizing and opinionating on so many things!

None of this should be left uncovered, should be left unreported or sanitized either--it should all come out from a balanced historian.

It all makes him even more interesting and shows him to be the interesting quilt he apparently really was!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Philip Gordillo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2020, 06:46:00 AM »
Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any tips on how to acquire this book without getting mugged at the same time?  Tom Doak’s new book (incredible by the way) has inspired me to start adding to my small collection and it appears that Mr. Bahto’s book has been out of print for many years.  Would also appreciate recommendations on other noteworthy titles particular with illustrations of individual golf holes from a birds eye view.  Here’s what I have acquired so far.


- Scotland’s Gift, CB Macdonald
- Classic Golf Hole Design, Cornish & Graves
- The Walker Cup, Simmonds
- Golden Age of Golf Design, Shackleford
- Anatomy of a Golf Course, Doak
- Cypress Point Club, Shackleford
- Methods of Early Golf Architecture, Various
- Getting to 18, Doak


Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #64 on: August 04, 2020, 08:46:52 AM »
Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any tips on how to acquire this book without getting mugged at the same time?  Tom Doak’s new book (incredible by the way) has inspired me to start adding to my small collection and it appears that Mr. Bahto’s book has been out of print for many years.  Would also appreciate recommendations on other noteworthy titles particular with illustrations of individual golf holes from a birds eye view.  Here’s what I have acquired so far.

- Scotland’s Gift, CB Macdonald
- Classic Golf Hole Design, Cornish & Graves
- The Walker Cup, Simmonds
- Golden Age of Golf Design, Shackleford
- Anatomy of a Golf Course, Doak
- Cypress Point Club, Shackleford
- Methods of Early Golf Architecture, Various
- Getting to 18, Doak

I'd very highly recommend The Links by Robert Hunter and Golf Architecture in America by George Thomas.  They are among the most informative, and easiest to read and comprehend.  Plus, I think the experts here would tell you, no golf course architecture library, however small, would be complete without them.
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Philip Gordillo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #65 on: August 04, 2020, 11:28:01 AM »
Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian.  Just ordered them.  Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay.   Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #66 on: August 04, 2020, 12:43:58 PM »
I have a copy of the book, purchased from a certain pro shop in Chicago which at the time had a stack of them. If I had known I would of bought all of them?  ;)


It's a terrific book, and honestly the reason the price is so high is that it's one that I go back and read bits all the time. So why would I ever sell something that is such a great resource and source of enjoyment.
H.P.S.

Bob Montle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #67 on: August 04, 2020, 12:54:34 PM »
Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian.  Just ordered them.  Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay.   Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...

Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650
"If you're the swearing type, golf will give you plenty to swear about.  If you're the type to get down on yourself, you'll have ample opportunities to get depressed.  If you like to stop and smell the roses, here's your chance.  Golf never judges; it just brings out who you are."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #68 on: August 04, 2020, 01:22:57 PM »
Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian.  Just ordered them.  Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay.   Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...

Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650


My recommendation would be to wait a few months.  I have been exploring the idea of reprinting the book.  It's not a done deal yet but it might save you several hundred dollars to wait.  [Or, if you're a seller, you might want to lower your price now and make sure to sell before there is a flood of new copies on the market!]


A question, while it's on topic:  the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos.  That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?].  I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #69 on: August 04, 2020, 02:03:17 PM »
A question, while it's on topic:  the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos.  That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?].  I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
Definitely.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Philip Gordillo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2020, 02:18:15 PM »
Same here!   Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in.   Will anxiously wait in the meantime.   Thanks for the heads-up.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2020, 02:21:26 PM »
Same here!   Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in.   Will anxiously wait in the meantime.   Thanks for the heads-up.


Same

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2020, 02:38:05 PM »
Really appreciate these two suggestions Brian.  Just ordered them.  Thankfully there were plenty of hardcover editions to choose from on Amazon and EBay.   Now if I could just get my hands on Mr. Bahto’s book...
Tom,


Very interesting. Now I wish someone would work on re-publishing “Crump’s Dream”!

Abebooks has several used copies.
Alas ...
They start at $650


My recommendation would be to wait a few months.  I have been exploring the idea of reprinting the book.  It's not a done deal yet but it might save you several hundred dollars to wait.  [Or, if you're a seller, you might want to lower your price now and make sure to sell before there is a flood of new copies on the market!]


A question, while it's on topic:  the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos.  That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?].  I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
Tim Weiman

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2020, 06:01:13 PM »
Same here!   Anything you produce will be of the highest quality so definitely count me in.   Will anxiously wait in the meantime.   Thanks for the heads-up.


Same


Ditto

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Evangelist of Golf  / George Bahto
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2020, 08:19:37 PM »
A question, while it's on topic:  the photography in the original book was pretty poor by today's standards, so we have discussed the possibility of substituting better photos.  That would cost a little bit more [maybe $5 per book?].  I'm curious if people think that would be worth it or not.
Definitely.


Agreed -- having read the original, it could be updated with better pics with no harm done to the original's place in golf architecture literature.

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