How DO you keep the old courses competitive?

[Jim Nugent]

Lots of great old courses try to combat the modern game, often by adding length, rough or both.  I read lots of complaints about this.  

My question is, what can the classic courses do to keep today´s pro´s from tearing them apart?  

Take Augusta.  Back in the mid-1990´s Tiger Woods was hitting nine irons and wedges into 15 -- on his second shot.  This year he had 70 or so yards left to number 1.  

TOC is another example.  Woods drove or nearly drove four or so of the par 4´s this year.  He had 6 or 7 iron into the 1st par 5.  He finished 14 under par and left a number of shots on the course.  (Get ready for the next Tiger age: he´s going to dominate like never before.)

How do classic courses defend themselves against the super-long modern game?

[A_Clay_Man]

You shorten them. That way every player has a go at eagle on the dirveables and hitables. The scores go lower, but honestly, who cares about protecting an integer?

[Dan Herrmann]

Grow the fairways.  Make 'em longer.

uhhh - and make them use a shorter golf ball?  (but let us schmucks keep our ProV1's!)

[Dan King]

Change the par for the pros. Call the Old Course a par-68 for them and now Tiger Woods wins with a score of 2-over. Everyone becomes happy and all that was changes was a meaningless number.

These players are a bit better than scratch golfers. Give 'em thier own par. It can even be based on past results.

Dan King

Every hole should be a difficult par and a comfortable bogey.
 --Robert Trent Jones

[ForkaB]

Amen, Dan

The best golfer won, and it was fun to watch (at least for 63 holes before the rest of the field faded away.........)

[Mark_F]

How about some solutions from left field?

- No yardages
- No marshalls looking for wayward balls, with the crowd to remain mum also
- Only 5 minutes allowed on the practice fairway before a round, like the rest of us
- Only allowed to start a round with a packet of three - and that's balls, not prophylactics - and no topping up if you run out.  Pros should have to rely on finding someone else's brand new Pro V1 in the undergrowth like the rest of us
- Only 10 clubs - starting from a 5-iron, and then making sure there are at least 2 200 yard plus par threes - after all, if Christy O'Connor could hit one with a putter years ago, there's no reason today's superbly manufactured athletes shouldn't have to also

[Mike_Young]

closely mowed green complexes

[Patrick_Mucci]

My question is, what can the classic courses do to keep today´s pro´s from tearing them apart?  

NOTHING[/color]

How do classic courses defend themselves against the super-long modern game?

THERE IS NO WAY

IT'S NOT THE COURSES, IT'S THE EQUIPMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE MODIFIED[/color]

[Paul Richards]

>How DO you keep the old courses competitive?

A competition ball, of course.

[tonyt]

14 under, 4 under or 4 over, it makes little difference to me. I think the golf course did a great job this week of identifying a leaderboard of many high calibre players, one of whom outplayed his rivals to win his second Open Championship. So fix nothing. It works just fine.

[Paul Richards]

Tony

>So fix nothing. It works just fine.

As far as THE OPEN is concerned.

However, the USGA and PGA Tour have to trick-up courses to even keep the courses challenging for today's hi-tech game ....

[tonyt]

Paul,

Sure, I was referring to this week and not all courses in general.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony Titheridge,,

You may not be aware of it, but, TOC was altered.  It was lengthened, the fairways were narrowed, certain areas were allowed to grow from fairway to rough and bunkers were altered.

If it hadn't perhaps 24-28 under would have won.

Is that what you want to see ?

Arizona Desert golf at TOC ?

[TEPaul]

I completely agree with Paul Richards. There's nothing wrong with TOC---it's definitley not non-competitive. Who cares if a Tiger Woods is capable of driving some of the par 4s in helping winds or if he hits a medium iron into a par 5 in a helping wind? To try to do something like that TOC presents a good deal or risk. It's an extraornidinary golf course---the ultimate in strategy through and through. The runnerup shots what--9 or 10 under for 72 holes and Woods wins by 4 or 5? What's non competitive about the golf course? The analysts on here should also begin to fully appreciate the fact they are probably watching the most talented golfer in the game's history perhaps at a point even before midway in his career!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Once these courses run out of real estate, they'll go the way of Prestwick.

[Dan King]

There is nothing wrong with Prestwick other than crowd control.

Dan King

You would like to gather up several holes from Prestwick and mail them to your top ten enemies.
  --Dan Jenkins

[James Edwards]

How many of the old courses are played nowadays on the 3 main tours?

[Jfaspen]

With Tiger driving 3-4 par 4's and having 7 iron into a par-5.. What's gonna happen the next time the Open Championship comes to the old course?  
Even wind couldn't stop his scoring.  It's time to look at the equipment and at the very minimum stop the ball where it is now.

[Brent Hutto]

It's time to look at the equipment and at the very minimum stop the ball where it is now.

For all the big talk about "rolling back the ball" and "bifurcation" I'd settle for the USGA/R&A simply putting a real testing protocol in place immediately. It is quite possible to come up with a test that ensures no comforming ball will fly significantly further than a current-spec ProV1 or similar and that distance does not see a beyond-linear increase if swing speeds higher than today's big hitters become possible.

Based on the history of ball conformance testing, I consider even that a very faint hope.

[Marc Haring]

If they want to, they can trick these courses up as much as they want, although personally I don’t have a problem with 30 under winning. What I object to, is the fact that every course you ever play is tricked up for the average day to day duffer.

[David Panzarasa]

Was there all this talk about changing course layouts and equipment when lets say Raymond Floyd shattered the record at Augusta so many years ago? Or when all the records stood until they were broken? Did they want to change the layouts or pull equipment back when Jack was just destroying the courses years ago? I am a tad to young to know this, and just wonder? It seems like the majority of the older golfers (50+ years) are the ones that are constantly complaing about how long the balls are and this and that. To me simply , make the courses tougher! I saw sergio have a perfect view and shot to a hole the other day when he was more then one ENTIRE fairway off track. How is that hard? I watch the 18th hole all week long and what is difficult at all about that? you hit driver or anything and that fairway is the size of a golf range with no troubly anywhere, and the valley of sin is suppose to be scary? it does not penalize a bad shot what so ever. How can the ball or equipment have anything to do with that? Lets maybe penalize someone for not hitting a fairway, that might be a noble idea. scores are not really better, and even with the great equipment advances and even with the way the players now work out and are much better physically then the players of old. We are watching a freak of nature in Tiger Woods and why try to punish him for being so great. I really would like to know if Augusta was changed after Ray Floyd set that amazing record years ago? It might have been, but I have no idea. This was as competitive as golf comes this past weekend, take away Tiger and how many golfers were fighting for 1st place, 10? that is great!  I just think that it is the older golfers that are the ones complaining a little to much right now, just like in baseball, just like in basketball and just like in football, they all complain about how the game is different and are sad to see people breaking records or doing well. That has been forever in sports. Never going to change. Scores are not that much better, and if we need to see everyone more competitive then shorten the courses, make it more penal when not hitting a fairway for god sakes! and let them play golf. We dont need longer courses, or a,scale back in equipment, we need courses that bring more then the driver and wedge in the game, actual rough, and for the people to stop complaing that the ball and equipment is to good.....it is not that major of a factor. they do tests, and if every driver actually gave you the increase of 20+ yards over the past driver they made like they say, then people would be hitting 500+ yard drives. People are better today in all sport and records are made to be broken. I wish the courses would not keep on adding yards, just one of the most amazing things to me. When you keep adding yards you are making the cometitive field smaller reach time, why dont they get that?

[Jim Nugent]

My question is, what can the classic courses do to keep today´s pro´s from tearing them apart?  

NOTHING[/color]

How do classic courses defend themselves against the super-long modern game?

THERE IS NO WAY

IT'S NOT THE COURSES, IT'S THE EQUIPMENT THAT NEEDS TO BE MODIFIED[/color]

Patrick, I´ll be surprised if they modify the equipment for the pro´s.  Everyday golfers will still play with the new turbo-charged versions -- the marketplace will demand that, the PGA and USGA will be helpless to stop it.  The pro´s will no longer blast the ball 50 yards past the rest of us.  That vast gulf that separates the pro´s from everyone else will narrow a lot.  Can the PGA afford to make its heroes more mortal?

[Brad Klein]

David, ANGC has continually tinkered with design features, but only in the last decade has length been the focus.

When Floyd won in a runaway in 1976, he played almost all of the par-5s with driver/5-wood. The issue wasn't that he overpowered the course with length and strength, but that he played well. By contrast, When Nicklaus overpowered the course in the mid-1960s, some considerable bunker tinkering and tightening of landing did take place. The issue today, however, isn't just the winner or one player, it's what the field is able to do.

[David Panzarasa]

Brad,
 Thank you for replying, I always wondered ifthey changed the courses when those past experiences have happened. In respect to Raymond Floyd not overpowering and just playing well, that is false, he overpowered the course! Same as Tiger did..both played beyond well and overpowered the course, that is the only way to get scores like that, and yet for Tiger (and I mean the new player not just tiger) they decide to add yards to every course now? But the fields are not really killing the courses today are they? at least the great courses and big tournys. Sawgrass holds it own every year and is not that long, Riviera the same, spyglass isa perfect example as well.
 When Tiger won Pebble years ago he won by like 10+ shots and I am not sure if anyone else was under par? Then you see the course play a total different way for other events there and all it took was some tinkering with rough and green speed to make the scores stay low and everyone in contention. They did not add yards in that year to Pebble Beach. The good events we see, never have a field destroying a course, if ever it is only one person. Why do they keep thinking they need to change the courses then?  And sadly add yards to make it so much worse.

[RT]

Make more greens like no. 8 at The Old Course, on Sunday's pin position.  What great sublime movement both Ollie and Tiger missed for their birdies.