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Tom Doak

My NZ Xmas card
« on: December 29, 2002, 02:45:53 PM »
Anyone who received my Christmas card (Tommy, Ran, etc.), I'd love it if you could post the picture here so everyone can see what our Sheep Ranch in N.Z. looks like.

Failing that, if someone who can post the picture will e-mail me, I will send it along to you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2002, 03:14:02 PM »
Tom,
I'm right at the tail end of a move, and as soon as I can locate it with my other xmas cards, I'll scan it and put it up.

Pretty spectacular picture. Enough to the point that if I don't get invited to the Ren Cup there, I'll just invite myself!:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2002, 03:25:34 PM »
Tom:
The picture is great.  How high up is the cliff an how many holes will be along the cliff?

I'm also interested in your letter and the golf course on the Big Island of Hawaii.  When will you start construction and will you be able to build on the water?

Happy Holidays.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2002, 05:06:25 PM »
TD - I can scan it at work tomorrow and post it tomorrow evening.

JC (Tommy's apprentise!)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Butler

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2002, 05:13:36 AM »
I am going to NZ in June and would like to know where Sheep Ranch is located and what its status is.  We plan to play Paraparaumu and visit Titirangi on the North Island.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2002, 06:13:21 AM »
John:  The real name of the course is Cape Kidnappers; you'll see why I was calling it The Sheep Ranch tomorrow.  It is 30 minutes southeast of Napier on the North Island.

We should be finished planting the course by April 1, but it will still be growing in in June, and won't be ready to play until December.  If you're in that area, though, contact me a week before you go and I'll try to arrange a tour.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2002, 06:38:53 AM »
Maybe Erich could post it!?  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Erich

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2002, 12:52:03 PM »
Must have gotten lost in the mail......... ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2002, 01:05:53 PM »
Erich --

Dang!

I sent you a private e-mail, congratulating you on your funny answer to my little needle.

Too bad. It bounced back. Apparently the e-mail address you posted -- erich@bitemedankelly.com -- is invalid.

Imagine that!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Erich

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2002, 01:57:20 PM »
All in good fun.  I got a good laugh out of your needle.  Unlike some on this site I can take a good ribbing.  

Keep up the good work.  

Now if I could only figure out which road leads to Sheep Ranch in Bandon, I would be a happy man.  I could always do what those chaps down in Augusta did and get drunk and try to jump the fence.  Gotta figure Amen Corner would be worth a night in the lock up.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2002, 02:29:28 PM »
Tom,

I'd be happy to post the picture on my webspace, if someone can get me the image.

Got it!  Here it is...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Mark_Huxford

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2002, 04:12:15 PM »
If this is a two-shotter Tom it looks a bit 13 pine valley-ish.
Have you got one of the drop shot par 3 that follows?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2002, 05:18:21 PM »
Tom -

What kind of mowers are those?

Will they stay on after the course is complete? And
if so, are the considered a "loose impediment" that
can be removed without a penalty?

Happy New Year ...

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Mike_Duffy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2002, 09:33:34 PM »
I would instantly recognise that photo anywhere - it is typical NZ - the azure Pacific, verdant pastures and sheep. It sure looks like a knockout site.

Tom, I'm going to NZ three times next year, in February, April and probably August/Sept. Is there any chance of dropping by and having a look at the site, particularly around August/Sept. as I will travelling from Auckland to Napier?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2002, 07:23:23 AM »
Thanks Evan and Jon and others for helping to post the picture!

The photo is of the second shot to the 12th, a very long par-4 and yes, a bit like 13 at Pine Valley from here in.  There's about a thirty-foot drop to the left of the green, but I think we're going to leave the hole bunkerless.  There's a pretty good swale off the right flank as well.  Beyond the green will be the 13th tee (below the level of view) and then about fifteen yards further to the cliff, which is 138 metres above the beach.

You can't really see in this picture, but on a clear day you're looking clear across Hawke's Bay to the mainland running north on the other side, more than 50 miles up the coast.

The par-3 13th, alas, has to be changed because of Maori archaeology at the green site.  It will now be a short three slightly uphill, from left to right in the photo shown.  This is the one "moon out of alignment" that we didn't have to deal with at Pacific Dunes, and it's been tough knowing that we have to replace (potentially) one of the great golf holes in the world with one not nearly as exciting.

This leaves us with only two "holes on the cliff" :  the long par-3 sixth across the mouth of a chasm to the left, and the long par-5 fifteenth with a 500-foot cliff the last 250 yards along the left, and then behind the green.  The rest of the coastline is so serrated it would take massive earthmoving to play along the edge (and it wouldn't be stable when you finished).

However, as you can tell from this photo, you do get good views of the bay/ocean from other holes, in particular the fourth and fifth and tenth and twelfth and thirteenth.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2002, 10:28:10 AM »
Mr. Doak,

I was wondering if you could expand on what you mentioned regarding the relocation of the 13th green?  As a golf course architect, does the Maori findings directly interfere with your work?  As someone who works with the land, do you think it is important to 'pay heed', so to speak, to those who use to inhabit the earth you are working with?  Is it just another annoying environmental hurdle, or is this a legitimate issue that goes beyond the location of a golf green for a silly game?

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2002, 12:11:32 PM »
Tom, would you characterise the soil there as somewhat clayey or rocky rather than sandy?  
Is it something like the stuff above the sea cliffs at Half Moon Bay?  
I can see a bit of erosion under one of the trees but can't get a sense of whether it is really sandy or hard pan.  
Is it easy or difficult to work with?  How is the water-irrigation source and what type of
pumping power source/station will be used?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom Doak

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2002, 03:55:15 PM »
RJ:  There is a very thin layer of topsoil, covering a one-meter thick layer of clay and hard pan, covering some sort of ash material.  The ash material looks sandy in color, and is easy to move around when dry, but it soaks up the moisture and responds like bread dough after it's been wet.  Luckily, we've only had to move dirt on a few of the fairways.

mdugger:  I don't know how to answer your question exactly.  My main problem right now is disappointment, to be looking at a great golf hole and be told we can't build it, when there appeared to be nothing in the way at first.  I wish they had done all the archaeological homework before I saw the site, so I would never have had the hole in mind.

I do respect the history of a site and the people who have gone before.  This "hanging valley" below the line of the cliff is a very attractive spot, and so it's no great surprise in hindsight that the Maori found it attractive as well.  

However, as I understand it, the "sensitive site" is a mound which was built to store food -- essentially an ancient refrigerator.  It's hard for me to understand why this must be saved in perpetuity, and we have to keep the golf course 100 feet away from it.  There are several other similar sites at Cape Kidnappers which will also remain untouched.

This is the odd fact of life as a golf architect:  every different place you work has its own rules and its own values.  The New Zealanders don't seem to care at all about wetlands like we do, for example -- probably because they haven't filled a significant percentage of theirs in over the last 30 years of development -- so we can do a couple of things at Cape Kidnappers that we couldn't in the States.

My favorite was when we were working on Apache Stronghold, the archaeologist (who was Apache) showed us some rock check dams in the desert washes, which he said were remnants of a WPA project in the 1930's -- essentially, "making work" for the unemployed in the Depression.  Then he said that they probably wouldn't be considered too important for us to touch!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2002, 04:17:39 PM »
 Am I the only one not seeing a picture?  Or is Tom Doak going to minimalist extremes?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Huxford

Re: My NZ Xmas card
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2002, 07:17:11 PM »
>However, as I understand it, the "sensitive site" is a mound >which was built to store food -- essentially an ancient >refrigerator.  It's hard for me to understand why this must >be saved in perpetuity, and we have to keep the golf course >100 feet away from it.

Tom, do you have a regional authority telling you not to alter this site because of archaeological significance or do you have local iwi telling you not to go near it because of wahi tapu? Wahi tapu can be removed by the tribe. Has anyone offered them compensation for removing wahi tapu?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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