Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado

[Tim_Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

It seems to me that Mike Cirba was just expressing skepticism about any course rated so high. First, I assume Mike was amongst those who questioned Matt Ward's very high assessment of The Bridge. Then, he questioned David Wigler's very high assessment of Cascata.

I have no idea whether Matt or David went way over the top. Maybe these two courses are modern masterpieces deserving of all the praise they were given,

But, I am reasonably confident that golf courses can make a very powerful initial impression that can be tempered with the passage of time and more people offering critical assessments.

For this I cited The Old Head as perhaps the most famous example.

Given this phenomenom, it is perfectly reasonable for Mike Cirba or anyone else to ask questions, to request more detail.

Honestly, I have nothing to offer about Cascata except to respond to the pictures Mike presented and to reflect on the comments David Wigler and others (e.g., Matt Ward, Lou Duran) have made. So far, and absent more information, my gut instinct about Cascata is that it has an Old Head quality about it and makes a big initial impression for most people.

Maybe this is fair. Maybe not. Just my hunch. But, what is wrong with Mike asking for more detail? Do you feel you really know all there is to know about Cascata based on the reports given so far?

[Mike_Cirba]

Lou;

Thanks for following up.  Did you mind my asking you for more information and detail, as Patrick suggests?  

Sorry about the pictures.  I've searched and they seem to be the only ones of Cascata available on the web.  

If anyone has something more representative, I'd love to see them.


Patrick;

Please note that I have multiple posts on the other thread I referred you to.  Please don't stop at one or two and think you have the whole story.  

I'll copy the link again for your perusal;

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/YaBB.cgi?board=GD1&action=display&num=1051544803&start=0

I'd like to hear if you still think I'm biased or a member of anyone's fan club.   :-/

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton
$1,000,000

You obviously are not familar with IP addressing - both static and dynamic. And how one can track and identify a domain or network through an IP address (both static and dynamic).

[Mike_Cirba]

One had to always know in their heart of hearts that a 500+ post thread here would end in a $1,000,000 wager.  

[T_MacWood]

At 10 to 1 odds - I'm hoping Pat invents a third Mucci groupie. With $40,000,000 I could build my own G.D. Cascata!

Long live Cigar Aficionado!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I couldn't care less about IP tracking.

Static, dynamic, etc., etc..

Stop stalling,

Name your price and put your money where your mouth is.

You've got 10 to 1 odds, what are you afraid of ?

Being proven wrong again, or the money, or both ?

It's time to put up or shut up..... what will it be ?

[Dan Kelly]

One had to always know in their heart of hearts that a 500+ post thread here would end in a $1,000,000 wager.  

LOL.

Except: It's not ending!

[Mike_Cirba]

Can someone make a drum roll sound?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Speaking of Cascata, has Vegas posted any odds yet?  

  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I know that you think you're holding four nines, but there are better hands in poker.

Rather than accept your money, a personal, public appology will suffice.

The choice is yours.

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton
I would prefer a cashier's check....that would be a '3' followed by ten zeros...also if you could give me the phone number of Robert Von Hagge...I'll need an architect to build my dream course....Hackscata.

You won't go home empty handed: you will recieve a subscription to Cigar Aficionado and most importantly you will be given an honorary membership to Hackscata...Locker #1 Pat Mucci-Jr, Locker #2 LIRR, Locker #3 HamiltonBHearst, #4 Micheal Jackson, #5 Sigfried, #6 Roy, #7 Cybil....

[AWTillinghast]

I can just imagine Mr. Mucci sticking his pinky out like a kid and saying "Wanna Bet?"  

Mr. MacWood:  Is it possible that the IP is for the same "network" which could mean that HBH and LIRR are other people in Mr. Mucci's office sharing the same network?  Just asking as I know zilch about IP's of either the static or dynamic variety!  

[Lou_Duran]

Mike Cirba-

I never find your comments or requests improper or tiresome.  But as you noted, we do tend to disagree with some frequency.  Perhaps you focus more on the details and I on the big picture.  Regardless, I know that you love golf, and if you are a friend of Harvey Penick, you are automatically a friend of mine.  I do have a few pics of Cascata, but I have no idea on how to compress them to E-Mail them or post them on GCA.COM.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

You continue to beat around the bush, afraid to accept the offer, So, I'll make it easier for you.
I'll up the odds to 20 to 1, with a minimum bet on your part of
$ 1,000.

AWT,

I'll make you the same offer, but in order to sweeten the pot for you, we'll throw in my office, and my building.

And, to preserve your anonimity, we'll let Ran hold the CASH.

C'mon fellas, put your money where your mouths are !

Quit stalling and step up to the plate !

[David Wigler]

Tim,

I have played most of the "Wow" courses in the US and they do not get me anymore.  I said that I believe Cascata would be a top 50 with improved greens and bunkering and a top 100 without.  It had nothing to do with waterfalls or wow.  It is simply that good.  I have said many times that Shadow Creek is a top 10 and it is (I have been back three times and that belief never goes away).  

As for the artificial look comment, of course it does.  It has perfectly manicured fairways, reflection ponds, running streams and a 425-foot waterfall in the middle of a desert!!  So what.  Shadow Creek look artificial.  Whistling Straits looks artificial.  Arcadia Bluffs looks artificial.  TPC Sawgrass looks artificial.  Cuscowilla looks artificial.  World Woods looks artificial.  PGA West looks artificial.  You get my point.  I do not believe artificial to be a criticism.  I judge a course by its merits.

[Mike_Cirba]

David;

I think it's quite a testament to the skills of Tom Fazio (or Michael Strantz, or whoever was the lead designer), but I do not believe that the Pine Barrens course at World Woods looks artificial in the least.  It's basically "seamless".  Some elements of the Rolling Oaks course look a bit contrived by contrast, but not irritatingly so.

I've not played Cuscowilla but I believe that others here might find that course to be pretty naturally integrated into its surrounds, as well.  

I think generally, if one is going for a look that is blatantly artificial, the basic requirement should be that the course remains sensitive to the natural surrounds in a way where the artificial features remain somehow in cohesion with the native terrain.  I don't know how to explain that very well, but Pete Dye generally is able to pull it off, as did Seth Raynor in an earlier time.  They  manage to mix natural terrain and clearly man-made features in a way that remains appealing, and even fresh.

I agree with you that Whistling Straits doesn't quite manage that feat.  

[T_MacWood]

AWT
I suppose it is possible but extremely unlikely - one in a billion. If you have modem, your ISP will select a different dynamic IP from there designated block of IP addresses (unique to that ISP) each time you go on line. For example, if you went on line on under one IP Address and then signed off and then went on line imediately you would have a slightly different IP from that ISP's block of numbers. These IP Addresses are typically 10 or 11 digit numerals. Depending on the ISP they could have millions and millions of possibilities. If Pat signed off and LIRR signed on within minutes - assuming LIRR had the same ISP - with the exact same IP Address would be a minor miracle.  If this same phenomenon occured with Pat and Hamilton a few months later, it is beyond any statistical possibility.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

If the statistical odds are 1,000,000,000 to 1 or more,
and the monetary odds have been increased from 10 to 1 to
20 to 1, Why aren't you jumping on the bet ?

Enough of the idle chatter, step up to the plate, or be considered as just another poster making false allegations that they can't stand behind.

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton
Did you miss my previous posts? $1,000,000.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

That's how I figured you'd duck the bet.

But, if you want to pursue it, make a Cashier's check made out to me with Ran holding same until the bet is decided.

You can add or subtract as many zeroes as you'd like, you're going to eat your words or pay off, or slink away in defeat or default, having made a totally false allegation, once again.

You can't come to grips with the fact that you're wrong, again, and continue to duck the issue with attempts at humor.

The next time you make an allegation, make sure you have your facts right.

The proof to you should have been HBH saying that I was the only intellectually honest person on the site.  Do you really believe that I would say that about myself ?   And, if you do, then you're being dishonest with yourself and the site.

[T_MacWood]

Pat/LIRR/Hamilton said: "The proof to you should have been HBH saying that I was the only intellectually honest person on the site.  Do you really believe that I would say that about myself ? "

Yes.  

[David Wigler]

Mike,

You take artificial to be a negative and I do not.  On the site Cascata had, a minimalist golf course would have sucked.  It would be boring.  Cuscowilla looks very artificial.  Red Clay, huge bunkering, different grasses.  It does not bother me in the least.  I love Cuscowilla.  The Golf Club in Columbus looks like it has been there for centuries.  Muirfield looks artifical.  They are both top 10 moderns.  I simply do not mind an artificial look in certain circumstances and I believe that well over 90% of the golfing public is on my side of the fence.

[T_MacWood]

There is a difference between minimalism and naturalistic designs. Many of Stanley Thompson's greatest designs were certainly not minimalism, but the results were quite natural and blended well with their surroundings.

Red clay in Georgia might look odd to northerner, but red clay is native to that area. Wild native grasses might not be the norm on most golf courses....but native grass is native grass. Golf courses that blend well with the evironment are preferrable to courses that do not and are clearly artificial.

Fallingwater in built around and above a completely natural waterfall...it really is beautiful the way the man-made blends with the natural. The architect at Cascata chose to have a man-made waterfall actually flowing THROUGH his design...many are no doubt impressed. Which design would most architectural scholars prefer...and why?

There aren't ten modern courses better than MV?

[TEPaul]

'Intellectual honesty' and Pat Mucci=mutual exclusivity at its most sublime!!  

[JakaB]

Macwood,

Considering I have spent thousands of hours studying this site...and know more about the history of golf architecture than anyone within a 20 mile radius...am I now an architectural scholar....or will I always just be an architecural moron until I like only the same things as you....which I do.. but I think I also like so much more...As far as your book learning goes..I think this medium qualifies as a book by modern standards...if the posters are authors might be another issue,,,but I won't be flipping any paper just for a title.