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Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #475 on: May 22, 2003, 10:47:36 AM »
Wait a second...

This course cost $53 Million to build and has a water feature running down a mountain and THROUGH the clubhouse in the FREAKING DESERT!?!?  :o ::)

And a similar waterfall at Kingsley in Northern Michigan would look out of place??!  ;)

It sounds like the only place such conspicuous consumption and obvious phoniness would add to my enjoyment would be on the lost island of Atlantis!   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #476 on: May 22, 2003, 12:26:11 PM »
Matt,

Geronimo could not carry Cascata's jock strap.  They are not in the same class.  I have not played Chirichua, so I will not comment.  Boulder Creek is many steps down from Cascata as is Reflections Bay, Wolf Creek and both Summerlin's.

The quality of SouthShore, Cascata, Shadow Creek, and Southern Highlands gives Las Vegas a starting four that is in the second class only behind Columbus, Philadelphia, Monterrey and Long Island.

Mike,

Try $63M.  Don't knock it till you try it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #477 on: May 22, 2003, 12:29:24 PM »
David- Westchester County?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #478 on: May 22, 2003, 12:41:20 PM »
Geoffrey,

I have never played in Westchester.  What are the big four?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #479 on: May 22, 2003, 01:08:40 PM »
David;

Cascata comes with a jock-strap, as well?  

I guess for $63 million, the kitchen sink too.  ;D

Next time in Vegas, I will try my best to check it out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #480 on: May 22, 2003, 01:22:41 PM »
David- Westchester County, NY

Winged Foot West
Winged Foot East
Quaker Ridge
Fenway
Westchester CC
Siwanoy
Century
etc  

Oh yeah I almost forgot #1 = Trump National
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #481 on: May 22, 2003, 01:43:59 PM »

Quote
Geronimo could not carry Cascata's jock strap.

I don't generally comment on the style of posts, and I understand this was posted in the vein of shooting the bull over courses, but how much can anyone learn from a comment like this? Could you at least give a reason or two? Better variety, routing, par 3s, whatever?


Quote
The quality of SouthShore, Cascata, Shadow Creek, and Southern Highlands gives Las Vegas a starting four that is in the second class only behind Columbus, Philadelphia, Monterrey and Long Island.

Hard to imagine other bigger cities don't compare favorably, if you're including privates. Metro NY has the Winged Foots, Plainfield, Westchester & others people from the area could mention. Pittsburgh has Oakmont, Fox Chapel, Field Club, Allegheny, Sewickley Heights & other privates.

Glad to see you used my alternate spelling for Monterey.:)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #482 on: May 22, 2003, 03:57:58 PM »
David W:

With all due respect -- you must be on the payroll of the greater Vegas Chamber of Commerce!

I see you didn't answer the comparison between Cascata and TKC -- the answer to that questoin is self evident in my mind -- TKC in a knockout.

I'll concede the present Geronimo -- the one with the altered 13th and 14th holes is not the same course as the original one -- but I will not concede that Cascata is the better design or overall test.

Please explain to me how such a rudimentary routing is so well done at Cascata? The design basically follows up and down the terrain. I don't doubt the aspect in building a course in such a demanding setting is a major feat. However, the best hole comes early in the round -- the 2nd. After that you get the same rendition in some form or another. I did like the finish as the 17th is a good driving hole and the par-5 18th clearly tries to finish in a different manner than the holes that precede it.

David -- when you say it blows away the courses at Desert Mountain you really can't make that kind of definitive statement UNTL you've played them all. Chirichua is one of Jack's finest designs that I've played and without question IMHO it's one of the ten best in AZ now -- in my mind being in the top ten in AZ is a slightly more considerable feat than
the top ten in Nevada because of the depth of courses in the Grand Canyon State when compared to the Silver State. I don't doubt that Cascata may grab the top ten in Nevada (I'm being very elastic in this point) but I'd sill rather play the more fun twists and turns you get at Wolf Creek in Mesqite and I rather enjoyed The Wolf at Paiute -- although the island green there is no better than the silly waterfall that parades at Cascata.

Part of me is waiting for the return of Fantasy Island because the golf journey would be completely appropriate at Cascata -- I can actually see Mr. Rourke coming through the large doors and greeting the folks who come. ;D

David -- I'll give you the best six public in New Mexico is no less than a tie and in mind surpasses the one you list from Vegas.

In NM I'd list the following:

Black Mesa
Paa-Ko Ridge
Twin Warrior
UNM / Championship
Pinon Hills
Santa Ana (Tamaya & Cheenya)

David -- the quality of golf alone in Westchester is beyond that of Vegas. Yes, there are a number of new courses that have opened in Clark County that are quite good but you are seriously losing me when you think that they are thaaaaat good as a grouping.

P.S. Boulder Creek if played from the tips will more than match what you mention at Cascata -- jock strap and all! ;). Let me know what you scored at Cascata and then venture to Boulder Creek and plays the tips there. The mixture of holes is well done and you don't have the repetition of routing you find at Cascata IMHO.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #483 on: May 22, 2003, 05:51:55 PM »
Matt,

I didn't realize you were serious in your question of KC vs. Cascata.  You know my opinion of K.C.  It is clearly superior to Cascata and just about every other course built since 1960.  That is no slight on Cascata, K.C. is just that good.  

I disagree with your comment on AZ vs. Nevada.  I think that any of Clark Counties top 4 would be the best course in AZ.  Clark may not have the depth of AZ, but it is much stronger at the top.  I will be shocked if Clark does not have all four courses in the top 100 modern next year.  I would venture that there are no more than 4 or 5 other counties that could make such a claim.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #484 on: May 23, 2003, 06:17:34 AM »
And the march is on to 1000 posts. May the golf gods smile upon the general dislike of Rees's golf courses and let the discussion roll on.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #485 on: May 23, 2003, 10:50:31 AM »
David W:

You need to see more courses in the Southwest. ;) The listing I provided from New Mexico can easily meet and likely surpasses the quality of the courses you mentioned from Nevada.

I don't doubt that Shadow Creek is unique from a design perspective but does it really have the ummmphhh in shot value requirements? I don't see it.

You and are on the same page regarding The Kingsley Club which is good but you're notion that the courses you listed from the greater Vegas area ALL deserve to be on some top 100 modern listing is a bit much. I can see one or two making it but but not Southern Highlands or Cascata.

You seem to forget Wolf Creek in Mesquite and The Wolf at Paiute. Both of these courses have greater fun and demands than any of the ones you mentioned. I'll say again if you play the tips at Boulder Creek you will be thoroughly tested -- when you say BC is more than a few steps behind Cascata I have to hold on to the typewriter and stop from laughing tooooo hard! ;D

Now, I understand Boulder Creek doesn't have a waterfall or the ratio of 10 staff people per golfer as Cascata does on a daily basis but I don't see the kind of architectural heft that you seem to indicate is present. Again, Rees did a wonderful job in designing in such a harsh environment but beyond the demanding uphill 2nd hole you get the same tired rendition of up and back. Vegas golf has made great strides but no more than a very few courses in the greater area would garner national attention for a top 100 modern listing.

Lastly, in Arizona I would say the following are beyond the ones you mentioned in Vegas:

Chirichua (Desert Mountain)
Whisper Rock
Chapparal Pines
Desert Forest
Forest Highlands (original 18)
Silverleaf (interesting and well done Weiskopf course that's worth a look)

If you're looking for a match to Cascata for eye-candy similarites in terms of building a course with plenty of eye-memorability then include The Rim in Payson, AZ. I don't doubt both "look good" but they have little depth and character that makes a placement in a national listing possible.

The depth of quality courses in AZ is beyond NV -- I can't see how anyone can say otherwise IMHO.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #486 on: May 23, 2003, 12:58:56 PM »
Matt,

I played the Wolf course at Paiute the day before Cascata (My third time playing it).  I like it but it is not close to Cascata and not as demanding either.  I have played Wolf Canyon as well.  Cascata crushes it.  I have played two of the courses you mentioned in AZ, again not close.  AZ blows out NV in quantity of good courses but again, Nevada's big four beat anything AZ can put up.  

Have you played Cascata and Shadow Creek or are your  opinions based on pictures and the reports of others (Not intended as an insult but as a legitamate question)?  

I am amazed you think the courses you have mentioned are better.  If you have played them, then this is truly why ratings are so subjective.  We can agree so completly on KC and disagree so completely on Shadow, Southern Highlands, SouthShore, and Cascata.

PS - I am more than willing to take a bet that at least three of the above four will make the top 100 and I will be shocked if all four are not there - And they belong there, they are that good!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #487 on: May 23, 2003, 05:16:56 PM »
David W:

If you don't believe me regarding my playing of Shadow Creek and Cascata make a call to Kenny Wynn and to Rees Jones. I believe both can confirm such a thing DID happen.

I would trust that people who do comment on courses have played them. I've made that point to others who SIMPLY RELY upon photography. I don't.

P.S. We will agree to disagree about the differencs between NV and AZ golf. ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #488 on: May 23, 2003, 05:47:17 PM »

Quote
Have you played Cascata and Shadow Creek or are your  opinions based on pictures and the reports of others (Not intended as an insult but as a legitamate question)?  

Matt,

That is why I wrote the disclaimer about not wanting to insult you.  I assumed that you played them but wanted to be sure.  I have twice had long disagreements on this site before the person I was arguing with referenced that they actually had not seen the course.  We definitely need to finish this discussion over beers at some point.  I can accept that some of the courses you have played and I haven't might be better than Cascata but I cannot fathom how Wolf can be (Again I played them less than 24 hours apart).  Next time you are in Michigan, we can continue this argument at KC, where we both agree that we are in the presence of excellence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #489 on: May 24, 2003, 03:26:46 PM »
As much as I hate to agree with anything coming from an UoM alumnus, I must this time.   For the reasons noted by Mr. Wigler, I thought that Cascata was outstanding.  Perhaps I liked it even more than he did as I was not at all disturbed by the bunkering nor that the greens did not also double as a cementary for elephants.  You guys on the east coast must be really spoiled with all that good classical stuff in your backyard (some would say snobbish and elitist might be the more appropriate description, but not me ;)).

Matt, to suggest that the university course in NM is superior to Cascata is incredible.  It does reinforce my belief that ratings and raters are taken much more seriously than they deserve to be.  $$$$, architect, developer, clientele, age, region, costs to play should not be how we evaluate a course as it seems to be.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #490 on: May 24, 2003, 07:38:41 PM »
Lou;

Who is ranking courses based on "$$$$, architect, developer, clientele, age, region, costs to play"?

I even started a thread here trying to identify the best new courses in Texas, simply because I know that the southwest has been a hotbed of course building activity in recent years, and I wanted to get the insight of those of you who've played many of them.  

Admittedly, I did ask what a water feature starting at the top of a mountain and running THROUGH the clubhouse has to do with golf, and had to chuckle a bit at what seems to be conspicuous consumption at spending $63MILLION on a golf course on barren desert land (the land purchase cost couldn't have been all that much), but if I played Cascata, I'd look at the features in exactly the same way as I did at the $2 million Wild Horse in Nebraska, or whatever was spent at Rustic Canyon in CA, or Texas Star in your backyard.  

I also think Matt is the last guy who is "regionalistic" in nature.  Whether you agree with his opinions or not (and he and I also debate the merits of many courses), he does make an effort to travel throughout the country (even to places like Red Mike in God know's where) to seek out good golf courses.  

I'd be curious to hear what course features at Cascata you enjoyed, and am always interested in learning more about any course.  

Hope we can get together to play again soon!  :)

Best,
Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #491 on: May 26, 2003, 01:00:04 AM »
Shivas,

Jeff would look great and be a hit in the clubhouse at Pajaro where in the absent-mindedness of my old age, I failed the Huntley Test of Taste and Propriety.  Of course, I was already in trouble and off his list since I couldn't find my way to the MPCC-Shores construction site, and I had the temerity to defend CPC's 18th hole.  So, now that I am banned from both coasts, is Chicago still available for a visit?  I understand that there are many hotel rooms, rental cars, and public courses in the area.

Mike,

I fully concur that the same criteria should be used in evaluating the $1.5MM Wild Horse, the $8-9MM Texas Star, the $45MM+ Shadow Creek, and whatever multiple of that Cascata ended up costing.  My argument is that many people expect much more from a Shadow Creek because of the high budget and the green fee than they do from a Wild Horse, and hold the former to a much higher standard.  In effect, there is a judgement made based on value, and not necessarily relative to quality and architecture.  BTW, I see some merit in having a value list or ranking, though it would be even more subjective than the current "best" lists.

In regards to what features I liked about Cascata, I tend to focus less on bunker shapes, thematic consistency, or extraneous use of visual enhancements in favor of how the course actually plays.  Like many on this site, I too enjoy variety, options, a few tricks here and there, temptations, and the opportunity to recover from an indifferent stroke with one befitting a Tiger (and I don't mean Bernhardt!).  I thought that Cascata flowed extremely well with the land, even if it was largely up and down the hills.  The water cascating down from the top of the hill was not a feature that I would have spent my money on as the developer, but it didn't do anything to detract from how the course played.  In fact, the water features that came into play were very well done and added considerable challenge and thought to my round.

How I play the course, thank God, is not material to my evaluation.  Unlike Nicklaus, I've yet to find a particular style which suits my game.  An important factor for me is how much do I want to go back and play the course again.  In the case of Cascata, I've already talked to my wife about scheduling a trip early next year (and we are not big gamblers).  There is a well known course in my backyard where I know a few members, and I haven't had the desire to play it in years.  It is full of history, neat greens, bunkers, and surrounds, but not a tremendous amount of variety.  Firestone-South is another in this category.  As much as I hate to admit it, I guess that I fall in the Wigler/Huckaby camp of evaluating and enjoying golf courses based more on the playing experience and less on neat or quirky features and wildly rolling greens.  Of course, I've yet to play a number of the classics such as NGLA, PV, Seminole, GCGC, Merion, etc., so maybe I just don't have the experience to know any better.

In terms of playing, I am at a crossroad.  I am leaning towards retiring from the game and taking-up fishing or something else to occupy my spare time, but I might just start getting serious and practice again.  You see, I am unlike Dan King who can derive enjoyment from the game vicariously.  I haven't found the capacity to appreciate the art without being an active participant in it.  And I am not ready to accept your rather astute musing that gca makes us better golfers but worse players (or something to that effect).

Does any of this make sense?  Or should I be responding to my emai spam offering all types of medications at low prices, and conveniently delivered directly and anonymously to my home?  Dr. Childs once recommended a sleep aide.  Do you recall what it was?  No referals to Katz, please.  Like JakaB, I am self-medicated.

 

  
 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #492 on: May 26, 2003, 01:18:37 PM »
My second favorite course in North America (OK - I have about ten second favorite courses in North America - All bowing to CPC) is an up and down routing adhering to the land - Capilano.  Cascata has one of the best grouping of risk/reward tee shots I have ever seen and is a visceral as well as visual exercise off the tee.  Rees will never get credit on GCA for Lines of Charm but believe me, that exist everywhere on Cascata.  As well, he built a wonderful set of friendly and creative collection areas around his greens.  If this course had more intricate greens and challenging bunkers, it would be a top 50 courses in GD or GW.  That written, Rees knew his clientele was high rollers who Caesars wants to have think it is their lucky day and therefore bet hard when they get back to the casino.  Rees built his challenge and thought off the tee and then let you win his greens.  It is very well thought out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #493 on: May 26, 2003, 01:23:31 PM »
Lou-  Banned from BOTH coasts?  No way man- you are certainly welcome up here in the northeast. You have not been here to piss any one off yet  ;)

I may be in the same boat as you.  Being 6 up after 7 holes to the same esteemed and honorable gentleman and 1 under par at Pasatiempo.  I was told on the tee (jokingly) to take a good look at the course the next day as if it would be my one and only  :'( time there.  I proceeded to 3 put 8 and knock it in the trees on 9. After a while he said that he had never lost to a lefty in his life.  What pressure I faced.  Still, I plan to go back to the west coast and I think you should too!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #494 on: May 26, 2003, 06:21:24 PM »
Lou;

I think you told me more about what Cascata doesn't have than what it does in describing why you like it.  ;)

David Wigler talks about tame greens and "friendly" collection areas, but also is enamored of "lines of charm" from the tee.

Could you guys describe your favorite hole and what you think makes it so good?

Here are a few pictures of Cascata although I'm not sure if they're very representative;













« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #495 on: May 26, 2003, 07:09:32 PM »
David
Wow. Breathtaking in its loveliness and breathtaking in its artificiality.

What's with all this talk of 'lines of charm'....the term seems to be thrown around a lot lately? Is this a new catch phrase to describe some kind architectural design feature....please explain. From my understanding of the concept, I don't see any 'lines of charm' in these photos....this appears to be a prime example of 'lines of smarm'.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #496 on: May 26, 2003, 07:14:30 PM »
Mike Cirba,

I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from.

Lou, David and others have talked in positive, if not glowing terms about the golf course based upon their personal experiences.  You haven't played it, but offer photos as if to dispute their claim.  Why should they bear the burden of proof on the validity of their statements ?  Why should they have to defend their assessments and opinions due to the introduction of some photos you posted ?

Where or who did you get the photos from ?

If they were raving about Friar's Head would you question their judgement and post photos ?

Mike, it's all right, you can admit that Rees designed a good golf course at Cascata, it won't hurt your standing amongst the GCA cognescente, and TEPaul won't revoke your C&C fan club membership.  ;D ;D ;D

Tom MacWood,

What do you think the dictates from MGM/Caesars/Bally's were with respect to the design of the golf course ?
Or do the FACTS trouble you ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #497 on: May 26, 2003, 07:28:17 PM »
Patrick;

You are misinterpreting me.

David and Lou have written glowingly about the course, which Matt has disagreed with somewhat.  Terms like "Top 50", etc., have been tossed around, so I'm simply trying to glean some information from them because I think you'd have to admit that their posts have not been particularly detailed in explaining why they find it SO excellent.  

I posted the pictures not to challenge their viewpoints...I did so simply because Cascata is a very exclusive course that not many get to see and in trying to learn more about the course I came across them.  

What about those pictures do you find to be something that would "dispute their claim"?  

Pat...I've posted pictures here in the past of courses I haven't played (or hadn't played yet when I posted, such as Kingsley Club, Olde Kinderhook, Texas Star, Lighthouse Sound, and many others) simply because I think that people want to sometimes see what we're talking about and because I am curious, as well.  

I'm not sure why posting pictures of any golf course creates a defensive response.   I even wrote that I'm not sure if the photos are very representative of what one finds there.  

As far as my C&C Fan Club membership card, I was told about a year ago that "it's in the mail".  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

T_MacWood

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #498 on: May 26, 2003, 07:34:01 PM »
Pat said: "What do you think the dictates from MGM/Caesars/Bally's were with respect to the design of the golf course ?"

I really haven't thought about it. What were the dictates of the MGM/Ceasars/Bally's group for Cascata and do those dictates effect our judgement of the course's merits?

What were the dictates of the MGM/Ceasars/Bally's group on Sigfried & Roy and should those dictates effect our opinion of their act?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

HamiltonBHearst

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #499 on: May 26, 2003, 07:44:22 PM »

The anti fazio-jones crowd torched again by Mr. Mucci. I love it.  answer the man's questions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »