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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #450 on: January 31, 2003, 11:42:38 AM »
I've peeked in on the last page of this thread (it was never to be the last, alas!) several times -- not to read it, which would be silly, but, at least equally sillily, just to see if the same old combatants were still going at it ... whatever IT is. I still don't know.

Would someone who's been here from the beginning care to write an extremely abbreviated, Cliff's Notes-type summary of what, if anything, could be learned from this thread?

As the writer, I nominate: The Bridge Thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #451 on: January 31, 2003, 12:33:20 PM »
“What can be learned from this thread?”  

1.In the future, any magazine article espousing Rees Jones to be someone who “works with the land” will be met with harsh criticism from many GCA’ers.

2.Different GCA’ers have different interpretations of what “working with the land” entails.  Thus, the relevant question becomes, “Is there anything wrong with imposing your own ‘style’ to a piece of land regardless of what inherent qualities is possesses.  By inherent qualities, I mean features that contribute to good golf course architecture, both from a strategic point of view AND an aesthetic one.

3.Different GCA’ers feel different ways about criticisms of golf courses.....whether or not it is in bad taste to speak frankly of one’s work, or whether or not it is the point of discussing these matters in the first place.  I.E. Find out about new courses, discriminate between where you should travel to to play and where you should not.  Please keep in mind....these two reasons are but a couple of the reasons for the GCA discussion forum, but viable reasons nonetheless.

And lastly, we have learned that when it comes to judging a final golf product, we are quick to place all of the blame for our like, or dislike, of the course on the designer.  This subject leaves much to be explored in the future.  When we like a golf course we give credit to the golf architect, not to the circumstances of its’ creation.  Likewise, when we dislike a golf course we hold the golf architect accountable, not the circumstances of the courses’ creation.  Is this fair?  Does it matter?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

TEPaul

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #452 on: January 31, 2003, 02:09:28 PM »
"When we like a golf course we give credit to the golf architect, not to the circumstances of its’ creation.  Likewise, when we dislike a golf course we hold the golf architect accountable, not the circumstances of the courses’ creation.  Is this fair?  Does it matter?"

M:

Sure it matters but the question is--to what extent?

Most of the architects I know certainly realize and appear to live with better than some of us might imagine that even if some things aren't known or explained and they get criticized by somebody, that all that stuff just comes with the territory.

Rees is a friend of mine too, and honest to God he and his work might get clipped on here some but one might think he must be the most interesting man in the world given the size that some of the threads about  him and his work get to.

So maybe you're right and this subject should be discussed on here but I really can't think it needs to be discussed to the tune of 19 pages and 454 posts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #453 on: May 21, 2003, 08:30:50 PM »
Now that Pat Mucci has actaully visited and played SandPines, I'd be interested in his thoughts regarding the course, especially with regard to the issues discussed earlier on this thread.

Here's the pre-construction aerial again that Pat found on site:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #454 on: May 21, 2003, 08:36:52 PM »
Chris, I guess it was not an act of god that brought this post back to life as Pat returned from the west coast.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #455 on: May 21, 2003, 08:42:08 PM »
John,
I had an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other...now which one do you think told me to dig this up again? ;D I figured now that Patrick has actually seen Sandpines the discussion becomes relevant again and who knows?  Maybe we can get to 1000 posts on this thread!! :o
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #456 on: May 21, 2003, 08:46:25 PM »
Chris B,

Your picture has the identical water stain markings that my picture has.  Where did you get your picture ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CHrisB

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #457 on: May 21, 2003, 08:51:22 PM »
Pat,
It's the same image. I just referenced the same url you did in your post on the other thread. (You can right-click on any image to see where it is located "out there".)

That must have been an outstanding trip out west and I'm looking forward to your observations about SandPines.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #458 on: May 21, 2003, 08:55:04 PM »
Yes, Chris the devil is in ya laddie. However, 1000 posts seems very attainable for my point of view.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #459 on: May 22, 2003, 04:32:03 AM »
I refuse to read back in this thread to see if it is complimentary or critical of Rees.  Yesterday I had my first chance to play one of Rees Jones "Elite" courses - Cascata.  It is really good!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Chick_Evans

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #460 on: May 22, 2003, 05:08:04 AM »
David
You are the first person I know who said they REALLY liked the course....mostly indifferent reviews. Why do you like the course so much?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #461 on: May 22, 2003, 05:29:01 AM »
David, It was Rees/Pat vs the GCA universe and yes the majority thought the course was not much. I can see we will have a liftoff soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #462 on: May 22, 2003, 07:42:58 AM »
Ckick Evans wrote

"David
You are the first person I know who said they REALLY liked the course....mostly indifferent reviews. Why do you like the
course so much."

It would seem to me that David approaches playing golf a little differently from many here, he plays with passion and architectural imperfections do not get in the way of his enthusiasm or enjoyment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #463 on: May 22, 2003, 07:50:58 AM »
John,

Again, I refuse to reread a 700-post thread.  My gut instinct is that the vast majority of people criticizing it have never played there and are Rees haters or at best bashing the course based on photos.  My two favorite desert courses are Shadow Creek and the Palms.  Coincidentally neither one of them has any desert.  As far as true desert courses go, Cascata is exceptional.  The containment mounding that I expected was not extreme at all.  In fact, it was quite appropriate for the terrain.  The options of off the tee were brilliant.  Rees built lines of charm and safe passage on almost every tee.  The bunker work was a little overdone for my taste but not nearly as bad as other courses I have seen.  To top it off, the visuals are absolutely world class.  This is a thought provoking golf course in a visually stunning setting.  This course absolutely belongs in GW's top 100.  Put Cascata against true desert courses like Troon, Greyhawk, Apache Stronghold, Desert Mountain, etc. and Cascata blows them away.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #464 on: May 22, 2003, 07:59:42 AM »
Bob,

Our posts crossed in cyberspace.  You describe my views well.  My esteemed friend from GD's panel, Mr. Huckaby, is my model.  

That written, in this case, I was as impressed with the architecture as the passion it provoked.  If the bunker work was toned down a little and the greens provided a little more interior contour and challenge, this course is good enough from tee to green to be a top 25.  In fact, if you did nothing more than put Rustic Canyon's greens and collection areas on Cascata, I think it would be the defining course of desert architecture and a bulletproof top 10.

It is irrelevant to the architecture of the course but worth noting from a passion perspective, that the second most impressive sight I have seen on a golf course (After the view from 16 tee at Cypress) is the view from the glass atrium at Cascata with a perfect vista of the course, water crasing around my feet and a 400+ foot waterfall in the distance.  The view from 17 tee at Shadow Creek just fell to 3rd.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #465 on: May 22, 2003, 08:11:01 AM »
David;

Just for clarification, I assume you're talking Top 25 & 10 "Modern" courses?

How high would Kingsley Club rank if it had a waterfall of Cascatian proportions??  ;)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #466 on: May 22, 2003, 08:16:35 AM »
Mike,

Good claification.  I did mean Modern.  As for the waterfall shot - Bite me  ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #467 on: May 22, 2003, 08:22:55 AM »
David;

Thanks for the good-spirited reply and morning chuckle!   ;D

I can see it now, starting with an underground pump station at the high point of the second green, perhaps with a bubbling pond fronting, then cascading around the first green as a babbling stream, running down the 7th fairway in a staggered set of waterfalls, boulders brought in from a quarry in Chicago, and finally pooling in the low area short of the par-five seventh that can be filled into a little lake, perhaps with some islands with palms.  

Hell, I bet THAT would make Golf Digest's BEST NEW!! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #468 on: May 22, 2003, 08:28:30 AM »
Mike

Are you really gunning for a design consultant job on Mike Devries next project? Great job with those suggestions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #469 on: May 22, 2003, 08:49:43 AM »

Quote
Bob,

Our posts crossed in cyberspace.  You describe my views well.  My esteemed friend from GD's panel, Mr. Huckaby, is my model

Damn right, you tell 'em, bruthah.  I KNEW there was a reason I held you in such high esteem besides the fact you have the coolest wife on this earth...  ;)

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #470 on: May 22, 2003, 08:50:38 AM »
Geoffrey;

I hope David knows I'm just teasing him.  

He and I have had this discussion before about his fetishistic appreciation for modern, bubbling "water features".  Perhaps I've been to Disney World and Epcot Center too many times, but I find such man-made water wonders wildly wanting and woefully unwarranted on a golf course.   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #471 on: May 22, 2003, 08:55:42 AM »

Quote
wildly wanting and woefully unwarranted    ;D

Whoa... you are a poet and you know it, Mike.  That's a damn fine phrase there.  Well done.

I'm gonna be saying that all day now, damn you.  You know, like a song gets stuck in one's head?  Phrases and cool words have that effect on me.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #472 on: May 22, 2003, 09:55:22 AM »
Mike,

Of course I knew you were teasing and we have had this disagreement before.  Water features can work and not work.  On Kingsley, they would be horribly misplaced.  On Cascata, they fit.  Have you ever played El Dorado in Los Cabos?  It has six seaside links holes, six parkland holes and six desert holes.  Nicklaus tried to marry all the different design types.  It really is a wonderful exercise in understanding what is a good water feature and what is superfluous fluff.  Have you played Cascata?  If yes, can you honestly say that the 425' falls did not add considerable enjoyment to your round?  Put the same falls on a minimalist course and it would look at out of place as Jeff Stettner's hat in Huntley's clubhouse.  I have a hunch that I am now destined to defend Cascata as I so frequently defend Shadow Creek.  These courses are excellent engineered masterpieces and worthy of high praise because of their design elements and not worthy of criticism because of whom designed those elements.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

GeoffreyC

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #473 on: May 22, 2003, 10:24:25 AM »
Mike, Tom David and anyone else I've dissed lately should realize that its in fun and that I can dish it out but I can't take it  :P

signed

Grumpy
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:05 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #474 on: May 22, 2003, 10:40:35 AM »
David W writes:

"This course absolutely belongs in GW's top 100.  Put Cascata against true desert courses like Troon, Greyhawk, Apache Stronghold, Desert Mountain, etc. and Cascata blows them away."

Can you tell me which ones at Desert Mountain you are referring to? Surely, you're not including Chirichua or Geronimo? Blows them away -- how do you figure that?

I've played Cascata and I don't doubt it's a fine layout, however, the over production from man's hand in addition to the fairly pro forma layout of running just up and down the slope gets to be fairly predictable and at times somewhat annoying.

I credit the participants for the effort to build on such an unforgiving landscape but when you have such deep pockets to start with anything is possible. Getting a waterfall to run down a mountain and THROUGH the clubhouse is indeed something one must see to appreciate!

I've played all there is in the immediate Vegas area and would place Cascata in a top ten but I would also recommend no less the nearby new Boulder Creek Course which is much more natural and fits better to the existing land PLUS has enough pizzazz with its shotmaking requirements.

Look forward to your comments ... ;)

P.S. In a contest between The Kingsley Club and Cascata it's no contest in my book -- TKC wins on a knockout.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »