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J_Olsen (Guest)

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #350 on: January 28, 2003, 09:01:37 AM »
Isn't the question here not whether or not the land at Sandpines was as great as the pictures we saw, but...Has Rees EVER done what he says he does in the quote that starts this thread? The question is not has he ever built good golf courses, because everybody would agree the answer to that is yes. The pertinent question is: Has he ever "discovered" a golf course???? And, secondarily, is discovery necessarily Superior to creation?? I think so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Almond Joy's got nuts

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #351 on: January 28, 2003, 09:04:56 AM »
Does anyone know if oblique dunes necessitate regular containment mounding? Did the Oxfordshire have oblique dunes? For those with reading comprehension problems, these are QUESTIONS not statements.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #352 on: January 28, 2003, 09:17:55 AM »
I feel that J_Olsen's question is the germane one here, and the original point of the thread.  It's also why I listed out every original Rees Jones course so that those who've played any of them could cite which meet his "finding holes" description and which do not.  

Interesting that the photos at Sandpines and Oxfordshire also look strangely similar to the following sampler of eight other, geographically dispersed courses by Rees Jones....


















« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #353 on: January 28, 2003, 09:40:37 AM »

Quote
Mike Erdmann,

If you could provide any other information about the project it would be appreciated, especially about the Oblique Dunes, and the problems they create.  Thanks.

Pat, as I said originally I don't know for certain that they were oblique dunes, and not being anything close to a geologist I'll take a pass on delving any deeper into that topic.  No promises, but I'll see if I can get any more information from those I know who were involved with the project.

My reference to oblique dunes wasn't to excuse the work that was done, rather, it was just to point out that the land was completely different from that in MDugger's photos.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Hendren

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #354 on: January 28, 2003, 09:48:15 AM »
Will someone please publish the Cliff Notes on this thread?

Regards,

Mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Fact Patrol

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #355 on: January 28, 2003, 09:58:38 AM »
Mike Erdmann

Are you saying that the “land was completely different” from a “look” perspective, a “physical characteristic” perspective or from both perspectives?    Because Mr. Naccarato said “No, the ocean in the background is not what Sandpines is representative of, but the dunes themselves aren't far off.”
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim Weiman

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #356 on: January 28, 2003, 10:26:20 AM »
Pat Mucci:

Our discussion of golf courses frequently blurs the distinction between two analytical perspectives:

a)      final product
b)      project

“Final product” is the perspective most people have about a golf course. They visit and/or play the course after the permitting, design, construction and grow in phase have all been completed. At that point, a person makes a judgment about how good they think the course is. Each person makes his/her own judgment based on whatever criteria they deem most important. For our purposes at Golfclubatlas, we can only hope they articulate what encouraged them to reach the conclusion they did. Pat, inevitably there will be people who place more or less value on certain features than you do. That is what opinions or taste is all about. To each, his own.

The “project” perspective is something entirely different. It takes into account the many aspects of permitting, design, construction and grow in. It also takes into account the vision of the project sponsor. Personally, I find the “project” perspective interesting. But, we have to be realistic. Very few people here will have insight into all the details that make up the “project” perspective of any course. That requires “inside” knowledge that most people here don’t have or have only in the case of a few golf courses.

It is important to keep in mind that while the “final product” and the “project” perspectives are very different, both are valid. The trick is to avoid getting confused.

Let’s take a real life example I am very familiar with. A while back Tom MacWood offered the opinion that Tom Fazio did not utilize the “natural features” of Sand Ridge referring, amongst other things, to the large quantity of wetlands on the property. I knew from my knowledge of the course and the design process that Tom was justified in making his comments from a “final product” point of view, but probably not fair from a “project” perspective.

I say that because Tom is correct that the final routing plan does not, generally speaking, incorporate the wetlands in the strategy of many holes. However, it is clear from other routing plans Fazio prepared that he wanted to do far more of what Tom MacWood would have preferred seeing in a “final product”. The permitting authorities just never gave approval. Period.

So, Fazio went forward making the best of the situation. Moreover, he never blamed anyone for the situation. Indeed, at a member meeting he made no mention of any permitting restrictions placed on the final routing. He took sole responsibility for the final design.
 
In my view, the distinction between “final product” and “project” has become blurred in the case of Sandpines. Everything I’ve heard is that the final product is disappointing. The biggest complaint seems to be the artificial looking nature of the course, but, in fairness, Slag Bandoon made reference to other issues.

That’s the “final product” perspective.

When it comes to the “project” perspective of Sandpines, I have observed far less clarity. Our friend mdugger began this part of the discussion by presenting pictures of the area surrounding Sandpines. I took that to mean there was some very interesting land near the site Sandpines was built.

No comment was offered on whether the best site was found or what the permitting restrictions may have been. That’s important. If we are going to discuss the “project” perspective, that would be the appropriate place to start.

Nonetheless, thanks to your premature comments about “fraud”, controversy developed about the actual land Sandpines was built on before construction. Despite Mike Erdman’s comments, we are still woefully short of understanding what existed on site prior to construction. Exactly how good or bad it was remains open, in my judgment.

Another issue that remains open is the options and the cost of preserving whatever natural features existed on this site. We’ve heard speculation that money was tight, but nothing really definitive. Nothing that helps us evaluate Sandpines from a “project” perspective. Nothing that furthers our knowledge of golf course construction/design when confronting the so called “oblique dunes”.

For all this, I’ve concluded we really don’t have much to go on when it comes to evaluating Sandpines from the “project perspective”. We can observe the “final product” and report our findings, but we don’t have much to do on to evaluate  the performance of each member of the Sandpines project team..

You seem fixated on the notion that people are somehow being unfair to Rees Jones. I don’t make that assumption. We need folks like Tommy to look at land like that found in Oregon and dream of the best possible golf course that could be built. I see nothing wrong with pointing out that Sandpines falls short. How else are we going to inspire great courses to be built?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #357 on: January 28, 2003, 10:30:22 AM »
Oh dear me, Mike Cirba, you've done it now.  

How do I know these are actual pictures of Rees Jones golf courses?  I'm sure they are doctored.  They have to be.  

Thanks J Olsen for rehashing what I've been trying to say all 15 freaking pages here!  Let's talk about the article!  

HOW does Rees work with the land.  WHERE has he discovered golf holes?    

Guest, whoever you are.  In the words of Pat....you're right, I'm not smart.  But I'm also not a coward.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Mike Erdmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #358 on: January 28, 2003, 10:50:11 AM »

Quote
Mike Erdmann

Are you saying that the “land was completely different” from a “look” perspective, a “physical characteristic” perspective or from both perspectives?

The land was different both in looks and in physical characterstics.  I recall this from memory, and verified it yesterday with a phone call to a friend whose family was involved in the development of the course.  Every one of the photos posted showed dunes interspersed with hummocks, beachgrass and or scattered pines.  Those are much more stable and defined dunes (largely because of the vegetation) whereas Sandpines was the blowing, unstable sand.

I'm heading down that way in mid-March on a trip to Bandon Dunes.  I'll stop in and take some photos of the area directly north of #7 at Sandpines and post them here.  I'm sure we'll still be arguing this thread then!   ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Pine Scented Fragrance

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #359 on: January 28, 2003, 11:20:38 AM »
How did the pine trees on the perimeter stablize themselves in the shifting sands?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #360 on: January 28, 2003, 11:36:05 AM »
Since I don't believe I've ever seen any of those holes that Mike Cirba posted I guess I can't be sure they actually are Jones & Co. holes, as MDugger implied (facetiously).

But just for a moment let's assume they actually are Jones & Co holes. And if so, I can certainly discern the look of them without much problem.

So, would you like my opinon on what I think of the look of those holes and their architecture?

OK then, if that's the way you feel I won't give you my opinion of the look of those holes and their architecture!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #361 on: January 28, 2003, 11:46:08 AM »
http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/addressimage.aspx?t=1&s=10&alon=-124.10968436&alat=43.9976665&w=1&ref=A%7c1200+35th+St%2c+Florence%2c+OR+97439&Lon=-
124.113779099&Lat=44.00673175265


Mike Erdmann, while your at it this coming spring, taking those pictures, would you do me a favor and not only take pictures of the drifting dunes sand that comprise about 1/2 of the routing of the course fount north of 7 fairway, but take representative pictures of the above ground on the area of 4-5-6 and that whole western half of the property, and on the eastern border as well.  I don't think Rees planted that pine forest, on those "sand" "pine" areas that are clearly incorportated on 1/2 of the holes.  The drifting sand barrens are only the middle of the property.  And while your at it, could you take a pic of that smaller sand barren area that has topo relief approximately 25-30ft elevation about a 250 yard drive north of #7 tee, as I do think you will find that area quite representative of mduggers picturses, but I could be wrong... ::)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

guest

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #362 on: January 28, 2003, 01:25:26 PM »
How's this?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #363 on: January 28, 2003, 01:45:58 PM »
Guest:

I like that last photo. The blending of the architectural and the natural lines looks good. Mostly anyone might ask where either of them may begin or end.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

JS

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #364 on: January 28, 2003, 01:52:34 PM »
I'm sure that the photos that Mike Cirba posted are for real...I know the 5th photo down is from Hunstsville GC near Wilkes Barre, PA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Las Vegas Insider

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #365 on: January 28, 2003, 01:58:42 PM »
Don't tell Mr. Mucci, but Las Vegas has established an over/under number for this thread's length as of 2/1/03.

The number is 403.

Bet the over.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Fact Patrol

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #366 on: January 28, 2003, 02:00:37 PM »
Better than the photos of Sandpines!   ;D

Actually, it's a beautiful photo, although I have never found bulkheads to be particularly natural on a golf course.   ;D
And Mr. Mucci, that goes for Pete Dye's golf courses too!  ;D

I don't know how to post photos ,but if you go to www.walkercup.org/course/hole17.html you will find another photo of this green from a different and closer angle that I don't find nearly as appealing as the one posted above.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Son of a Guest

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #367 on: January 28, 2003, 02:03:11 PM »
What do you think the odds are that Mr Guest is Mr. Mucci's literary alter ego?  Would that not be the ultimate?  As Mr. Mucci says Mr Guest, identify yourself, or be like the rest of us posting as cowards.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #368 on: January 28, 2003, 02:07:01 PM »
You are not the first person to suspect this.  How about the "Rees Jones" post a couple of pages ago?
 
theopendoctor@usga.org?

I tried emailing it, came back as a bogus address.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Fact Patrol

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #369 on: January 28, 2003, 02:13:02 PM »
Tim Weiman:  “b) the final product was not something "discovered"; instead it is rather artificial”  Post 306

Pat Mucci:  “How can anybody draw the conclusion reached in (b) without knowing more about the project.”  Post 349

I think the photos posted by Mike Cirba answer that question quite succinctly!    ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Fact Patrol

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #370 on: January 28, 2003, 02:25:21 PM »
The time for humor has definitely come on this thread, so continuing on in that direction:

Pat Mucci:  “Mike Erdmann indicates the project went Bankrupt twice.  Obviously money was a problem.  Post  350

Was money a problem during construction or afterwards?
Is it not possible that money became a problem because nobody came to play the golf course?    :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #371 on: January 28, 2003, 02:26:52 PM »
Pats says          "Mike Erdman also indicated that the dunes indigenous to Sandpines were oblique dunes, not the coastal dunes, and that oblique dunes present serious stabilization problems"

Mike Erdman says      "Pat,as i said originally i don't know for certain that they are oblique dunes"

I hope I am not being intentionally deceived here. ;D  I will be more vigilant for now on because of the "surround" fraud.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #372 on: January 28, 2003, 02:32:42 PM »
Just in case anyone has any doubt, all of the pictures are in fact from different Rees Jones courses, from CA to FL, to SC to PA.  

The year each course depicted was built is as follows;

Pic 1 - 1994
Pic 2 - 1992
Pic 3 - 1994
Pic 4 - 2000
Pic 5 - 1994
Pic 6 - 1986
Pic 7 - 1995
Pic 8 - 1996


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #373 on: January 28, 2003, 02:36:56 PM »
Mike Cirba,

For the official record, I was totally kidding about the pictures being fake.  

I'm sure they are of Rees' work.

Ghastly things, some of those bunkers.  

Although, the last one doesn't bother me so much.  Must be the cloud formations ;D  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Fact Patrol Checker

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« Reply #374 on: January 28, 2003, 03:01:36 PM »
corey, based on your last post, you are doing as good a job as Fact Patrol at finding erroneous postings. Well done to you and to Fact Patrol for keeping things balanced.

Does anyone know how many natural golf holes Rees found on this property? If money was an object, is it safe to assume that minimizing earth movement would be to the developer's advantage?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »