[Jerry Springer]

Hey guys, we will fly you in for a show. Just let me know when.

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

Prior to living in California for about six years, I wasn't much of a wine drinker. But, living there and being in a job that involved lots of business entertainment, I gradually went "native" and before too long developed my own favorite wineries and vintages.

Along the way, nobody ever told me I was "biased" against any particular winery. Instead, if they felt a particular wine was special they would encourage me to sample it.  Sometimes this added to my list of favorites; other times I felt their recommendation was okay, but I wasn't inclined to rush out and buy some more.

That is part of the reason I find your constant reference to "bias" against Rees Jones so lacking in credibility. I had friends who swore I would love the next bottle of Silver Oak cabernet, but I have never heard Pat Mucci step up and passionately say he loves Rees Jones' work.

Through my wine critic lens that is striking: we have a guy constantly telling us we are "biased" against an architect, but he never tells us what he really loves about the guy.

Strange, if I may say so.

Sampling the world of golf architecture is far more difficult than doing the same for California or French wine. It takes more time. It takes more money. Those are two things most people don't have an unlimited supply of.

That is what makes our Golfclubatlas discussion group so important: consumers are bombarded with marketing messages suggesting that they spend their time and money on golf courses that aren't always what they are cracked up to be.

Pat, if you feel the assessments of Sandpines provided by people like Tommy Naccarato and Slag Bandoon are somehow unfair, then step up and tell us what you find appealing about the course.

If you feel mdugger mislead people on the quality of the site pre construction, then step up and share whatever documentation that you have.

Personalizing the matter by suggesting things like "bias" or "fraud" adds nothing to anyone's understanding of golf architecture or the performance of the architect in the case of Sandpines.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

You've been deceitful, and continue with attempts to mislead and denigrate.

First you try to besmirch Rees Jones, and now you accuse me of being a cheater on the golf course, in the hopes of furthering your own misquided position, to justify your actions.

Next time you kick your ball from the trees, I'll notice.
  

You have implied that I'm a cheater, that I have kicked my ball from the trees before, and that I'll do it again.

Nothing could be further from the truth, something you have a hard time understanding.

My long standing record of playing strictly by the rules is a matter of historical fact.

Check with the USGA, The MGA, the NJSGA, The tournaments I play in, the clubs I play at, and the people I play with, and see if you can find just one source that can substantiate your allegation.

You should have identified the exact location that the photo was taken from rather than stating that this is what the land that surrounds Sandpines looks like.  That was deceitful.
And, when the debate was raging about the photos, you could have easily cleared up the dispute by letting us know where the pictures came from, but, instead, you chose to be silent, perpetuating the deception, rather than being candid.

Don't worry about my life, worry about your credibility and integrity.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

I must tell you that some deranged person, with absolutely no reading comprehension skills has stolen or borrowed your computer and has been posting under your name.
Either that, or you've been consuming too much of that California wine you like so much when reading these threads

Time after time, both Matt Ward and myself have defended Atlantic and The Bridge against attacks by individuals, some of whom have never seen the sight.  Time after time, I've defended Rees's work at Hollywood, Baltusrol, The Country Club and other clubs from bashers, some of whom have never layed eyes on those properties.

You've also ignored my responses on this thead which address your questions and are in denial on certain issues.

Others have condemned the work at Sandpines, I requested that all the facts be assembled before drawing a conclusion, obviously a methodology that most on here, including you, don't agree with.  
You and others would rather RUSH to JUDGEMENT.

Don't you think it's important to know what the owner/developer wanted for a golf course on this site.
What his budget was, what problems he encountered before drawing all of your conclusions,

Face it, drawing conclusions, without the material facts, is a form of bias, when it's always about the same individual.

If that's your way of discovering and discussing things go ahead, do it that way, just understand that it's not my way, and that I'll continue to point out flaws in the supposed facts and the conclusions you draw through same.

Be objective, honest, fair and apply your standards uniformly, not selectively.  Gather all of the material facts and then draw your conclusion based on that information.  Don't draw a conclusion and tell me that the facts aren't necessary.

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Paul...
I appreciate you comments.  I really do.  On another note, I sense your feelings RE: Pat with each and every one of your witty and self-effacing posts.  Especially when it comes to Pat.

I don't feel that this man makes much of a contribution here.  It's like a bill getting bogged down in legislation-making an issue out of the most miniscule of points.  When did this thread ever become about my integrity?  And what's wrong with Bias.  Bias, my ass.  I don't like Rees' work and that's my OPINION.  Am I entitled to it any longer?  BIAS is not applicable here.  

From my point of view, it was quite clear that those pictures were not of the actual site.  Does that mean they have no value.  I say no, it does not mean that.

Yeah, I sure could have come in and corrected everyone who thought it was the actual property.  But, hey, this GCA thing isn't my life.  I was busy.

Now this man questions my integrity.

Mr. Paul.  You understand humor.  My crack about him kicking the ball back into the fairway was along the same lines as the things you say in jest.  Yet he freaks out, again.  
Nobody needs that crap.
Nobody learns from that kind of crap.
Just because you argue the longest does not mean you are right    

[Michael Dugger]

Mr. Rees Jones,

I tried to email you at theopendoctor@usga.org and the message came back.  Is this a good address?  I would really like to discuss some of the things I've said here in a private email.  But, the address doesn't work.

Are you really Rees Jones?

Did you notice that 5000+ people who have an interest in golf course architecture have viewed this thread.  5000+!!!

You may disapprove of MY juvenile ways....but give the others like Tommy N, Tim Weiman and RJ Daley the benefit of the doubt.  

Again, are you really Rees Jones?  I thought that theopendoctor.usga.org was sort of a suspicious email address.  If you really are him, please join in.  Do you have some pre-construction Sand Pines pictures you could post for us.  It would be really great if you did.  

I, for one, would LOVE for you to tell me firsthand HOW you worked with the land there and cite a few examples of HOW this is evident in the finished product.  

5000+ viewers of this post, Rees!!!  Some of them are doctors, lawyers and developers.  They might hire you some day, but only if they learn about your design philosophy.  

Thanks in advance

Thanks in advance

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDugger,

And what's wrong with Bias.  Bias, my ass.  I don't like Rees' work and that's my OPINION.

Yeah, I sure could have come in and corrected everyone who thought it was the actual property.  But, hey, this GCA thing isn't my life.  I was busy.
 

I have no problem with your dislike of Rees's work, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

But, when you attempt to influence others in the formulation of their opinion and you offer misleading photos in an attempt to do so, that's disengenuous.

We're all busy, that' a lame excuse.

You're right, this site/thread isn't about length, it should be about the search for truth, not the obfuscation of it.

Daniel Wexler & Tim Weiman,

I'll let MDugger's above post speak for itself on bias.

One last thing.

Before Atlantic was officially opened for play in May, I played a round in the previous October with Rees, Lowell Schulman and another mutual friend.  After I holed out my putt on the 9th green (current 13th), I asked in an admonishing tone, why the green hadn't been positioned next to a nearby pond, and why a stand of trees at the elbow of the dogleg, hiding a good bunker complex hadn't been removed ?  I was internally annoyed that these features hadn't been maximized.

I was then informed that they had wanted to do these things but were prohibited from doing so by several authorities.
They then went into great detail with respect to the problems that forced them to relocate the green, far removed from the pond, and why they were unable to remove the blocking trees for similar reasons.

On the surface, it seemed like an opportunity lost.
But, once I was in receipt of all the facts, I understood why the hole turned out the way it did.  It was logical and reasonable.

Some of you fellows want to educate everyone else, but want to resist the educational process when it suits your pre-conceived conclusions.  Is that bias ?? I don't know.

[guest]

Mdugger, of course that wasn't Rees Jones posting!

I really don't care whether you have bias for or against Rees Jones' work, but I would like to know what Rees Jones courses you've played other than Sandpines that have led you to your conclusions.  Which other courses of his have you played?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Daniel Wexler & Tim Weiman,

When I asked Tommy Naccarato who the original owner/developer was he responded that it was a Japanese individual who later turned the project over to locals.

My question to all is:
DID THE DEVELOPER FILE BANKRUPTCY ON THIS PROJECT ?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

How about that Cigar Aficianado!  Anybody see that article on Rees Jones?

[Mike_Cirba]

I think I'm probably making a HUGE mistake in getting involved with this thread, but I thought it might be worthwhile to broaden the discussion.  I'm not sure all of this focus on Sandpines is going anywhere, and I'd point out that Rees Jones has been an architect on his own for almost 30 years.  Following is a list of his "original" courses.  

How do people rank his career-to-date output...not just Sandpines, or Ocean Forest, or other possible "outliers", but what do others think of his overall success at "finding holes" as he outlined as his philosophy in the original article?
 
  Golf Courses Designed by Rees Jones
The following is a list of new designs since forming Rees Jones, Inc. in 1974.
ALABAMA  
 Greystone Golf Club (Legacy Course), Birmingham
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 
ARIZONA
 Legend Trail Golf Course, Scottsdale
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1995
 Quintero Golf and Country Club, Peoria
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 
 

CALIFORNIA
 Poppy Ridge Golf Course, Livermore
  Twenty-seven hole golf course - 1996
 Santaluz Golf Course, San Diego
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2002

CONNECTICUT
 Lakes of Isles Golf Club & Resort, North Stonington
  Two eighteen holes golf courses - scheduled to open fall 2004
 Redding Country Club, West Redding
  Nine hole addition - 1980

FLORIDA
 Burnt Pine Golf Club, Destin
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1994
 Falcon’s Fire Golf Club, Kissimmee
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1992
 Golf Club of the Everglades, Naples
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Key West Golf Course, Key West
  Eighteen hole design on the site of the existing municipal golf course - 1983
 L.P.G.A. International Golf Course, Daytona Beach
  (Annual site of the L.P.G.A. Titleholder’s Championship & Tour Qualifying School)
Eighteen hole golf course - 1994
 Naples Grande Golf Resort, Naples
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Olde Florida Golf Club, Naples
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1993
 Red Stick Golf Club, Vero Beach
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Creek Course at Hammock Dunes - Palm Coast
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2003

GEORGIA
 Jones Creek Golf Course, Evans
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1985
 Southbridge Golf Course, Savannah
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1989
 Ocean Forest Golf Club, Sea Island
  (Selected to host the 2001 USGA Walker Cup Matches)
Eighteen hole golf course - 1995
 Piedmont Driving Club, Atlanta
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
Nine hole par 3 golf course - 2000
 Charlie Yates Golf Club, Atlanta
  Eighteen hole golf course - Nine holes - 1998, 2000
 Reynolds Plantation (Oconee Course), Greensboro
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2001

INDIANA
 Otter Creek Golf Course, Columbus
  Nine hole addition to eighteen hole course - 1995

KENTUCKY
 Griffin Gate Golf Course, Lexington
  Eighteen hole golf course affiliated with the Marriott Hotel - 1981

MASSACHUSETTS
 Nantucket Golf Club, Nantucket
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1998
 Blackstone National Golf Course, Sutton
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Pinehills Golf Course, Plymouth
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2001

MICHIGAN
 Black Lake Golf Course, Onaway
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Thousand Oaks Golf Club, Grand Rapids
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000

MINNESOTA
 Dacotah Ridge Golf Club, Morton
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000

NEW JERSEY
 Cherry Valley Golf Course, Skillman
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1992
 Fiddler’s Elbow Country Club (Forest Course), Bedminster
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1994
 Flanders Valley Golf Course, Flanders
  Nine hole addition which required the building of four additional holes on the original course - 1982 (1985 U.S. Public Links)
 Pinch Brook Golf Course, Florham Park
  Eighteen hole golf course on the site of the old Florham Park Country Club - 1983

NEVADA
 Rio Secco Golf Club
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1997
 Cascata Golf Course, Boulder City
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000

NEW HAMPSHIRE
 Baker Hill Golf Club, Newbury
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2002

NEW YORK
 Atlantic Golf Club, Bridgehampton
  (1995 Metropolitan Open)
(U.S.G.A. Senior Amateur Championship - 1997)
Eighteen hole golf course - 1992
 Olde Kinderhook Golf Club, Kinderhook
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1999
 The Bridge Golf Club, Bridgehampton
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2002

NORTH CAROLINA
 Ballantyne Golf Club, Charlotte
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1997
 Bryan Park Golf Course, Champions Course, Greensboro
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1989
 Currituck Club, Corolla
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1996
 Emerald Golf Club, New Bern
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1988
 Old Chatham Golf Club, Raleigh
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2001
 Peninsula Golf Club, Huntersville/Lake Norman
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1990
 Pinehurst Country Club - Course Number Seven, Pinehurst
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1986, 2003
 Sea Trail Golf Links, Rees Jones Course, Sunset Beach
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1989
 Talamore at Pinehurst, Southern Pines
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1991

OREGON
 Sandpines Golf Club, Florence
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1993

PENNSYLVANIA
 Eagle Lodge Golf Course, Lafayette Hill
  New eighteen hole design on the site of an existing course - 1982
 Huntsville Golf Club, Wilkes-Barre
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1994
 Lookaway Golf Club, Buckingham
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1999
 Tattersall Golf Club, West Bradford Township
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000
 Totterridge Golf Club, Murrysville
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2001

SOUTH CAROLINA
 Bear Creek Golf Club, Hilton Head Island
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1980
 Belle Terre Golf Course, Myrtle Beach
  Two eighteen-hole golf courses - 1995
 The Golf Club at Briar's Creek, Johns Island
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2001
 Charleston National Country Club, Mount Pleasant
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1989
 Country Club of Hilton Head, Hilton Head Island
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1986
 Haig Point Club, Daufuskie Island
  Twenty-seven hole golf course - 1986
Additional nine holes - 1989
 Oyster Reef Golf Club, Hilton Head Island
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1982
 Wild Wing Plantation - Falcon Course, Myrtle Beach
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1994
 Woodside Plantation Country Club - The Wisteria Course, Aiken
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1987

TENNESSEE
 Graysburg Hills Golf Course, Chuckey
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1979

TEXAS
 The Houstonian Golf Club, Houston
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1999
 Shadow Hawk Golf Club, Houston
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1999

VIRGINIA
 Golden Horseshoe Golf Club, Green Course, Williamsburg
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1991
 Greenbrier Golf Club, Chesapeake
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1987
 Hell’s Point Golf Club, Virginia Beach
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1982
 Stoney Creek Golf Course, Wintergreen
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1988
 Stoney Creek Golf Course, Wintergreen
  Nine hole addition - 1998

CANADA
 Royal Oaks Golf Club, Moncton, New Brunswick
  Eighteen hole golf course - 2000

ENGLAND
 Oxfordshire Golf Club, Thame
  (Selected to host the 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999 Benson & Hedges International Open)
(1995, 1996 Ladies English Open; 1995 & 1996 Andersen Consulting
World Championship of Golf)
Eighteen hole golf course - 1993

PUERTO RICO
 Palmas Del Mar Resort, Humacao
  Eighteen hole golf course - 1999

SOUTH WEST AFRICA
 Swakopmund Golf Course, Swakopmund
  Nine hole golf course - 1977


SPAIN
 Campo de Golf Campus Boadilla BSCH (Banco Santander)
  Eighteen hole golf course - Scheduled to open summer 2004


 

[Tim Weiman]

Pat Mucci:

I'm aware you enjoy the Atlantic. I also recall Matt Ward's enthusiastic comments about the Bridge. Rees' "open doctor" work simply doesn't strike me a relevant to discussion about the Sandpines project.

Anyway, first we had "bias". Then "fraud". Then "deceit". Now we have "denial". Wow! That's quite a bit coming from someone with apparently no first hand experience at the course we are discussing.

Pat, can you explain to me what possible motivation I have to be "biased" against Rees Jones? How did he manage to get singled out?

And while you are at it, I'd like to know one other thing:

if I sample a bottle of wine and come away not especially impressed, does that make me "biased" against the winemaker? Do I really need to provide a detailed report on the entire life cycle of making that particular vintage? Can't I just say "it's okay", but I'd rather not order a case?

In golf terms, I would say the same thing about my exposure to Rees. I've seen about ten courses and wouldn't care to comment strongly either way, except that I'm among those who, when seeing his famous mounds, wonder about the degree of artistic talent.

On the other hand, I'd always like to see something special regardless of who the architect is. If, for example, his recent project near Albany (Old Kinderhook - do I have that right?) is really something special, than I want to see it. Just like I'd like to have another bottle of Mike Grgich's 1985 cabernet.

Bias with wine or golf doesn't make sense. If it is really good, I'd like to experience it. If not I'll pass. And I certainly don't mind someone telling me "okay.....but not worth a special visit".

Why are you so opposed to that?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim Weiman,

I never said that you were biased with respect to Rees's work.

I think you may be in denial with respect to the objectivity of the photos offered as representing the land surrounding Sandpines and the actual site, pre-construction, at Sandpines.
But, I don't think you have an axe to grind.

if I sample a bottle of wine and come away not especially impressed, does that make me "biased" against the winemaker?

No, but if you never sampled the wine and declare that it's no good, that makes you biased.  

And, if you've never tasted wine from that vinyard and yet declare that the vinyard doesn't produce good wine, that's biased.

Many have chosen to make an evaluation of the golf course at Sandpines without seeing it and without an in depth analysis of all of the material facts surrounding the creation, design and construction of Sandpines.

I've only asked that all the material facts be obtained before reaching an objective conclusion, not one based on misleading, false or missing information.

Maybe we'll all learn something through that process.

[Andy Lipschultz]

Guys this is fantastic. This is like the car chases we here in SoCal get on the evening news once a month---you cannot turn it off.

I am sitting on a movie set right now and a couple of us have been reading this thread and it's more entertaining than what we're shooting. Keep going, we're shooting until 9 pm PST.

I've played Sandpines a few times and I'm not even going to give my thoughts about that piece of...sorry, never mind.

[Jeff Williams]

Patrick
What is your opinion of Sandpines?

[corey miller]

Quite a list. i am sure he was dealing with a lot of developers who did not give the proper mandate and with a lot of properties that the environmentalists would not let him be creative. I thought Arcadian Shores was Rees? I have only played Talamore NC.  

What were his best properties to work with?

[Tim Weiman]

Andy:

While living in LA I learned all about those car chases. Those TV stations with all their helicopters are just waiting for that one fool who tries to come out of his car with guns blazing and meets his end at the hands of twenty policemen.

Only in LA.

Pat Mucci:

I'm not in denial regarding the pictures of Sandpines. Pictures of any site can inform or mislead. Pictures I've seen of Pacific Dunes do a fairly good job of depicting the property. I don't have the same feeling about marketing photos of Doonbeg.

In the case of Sandpines, I don't think we have seen nearly enough to form any conclusion - including that bit about "fraud".

Pat, it is fine to ask for more information. The more the better. But, it is not very often that anyone here provides substantial detail on any course. Perhaps the best effort we saw was the person who posted all those pictures of Bethpage last summer. I also think Ran has done a very good job with his course descriptions.

Lacking photographic documentation, at some stage you have to rely on people familiar with the site from personal visits. In the case of Sandpines, I hear Tommy N to be saying:

a) the pre construction site was not as good as mdugger's photos

b) but it was better than the final product would suggest

Until I hear a more informed opinion, that's the best I have to go on. I can't personally check out everything.

[RJ_Daley]

Andy,  thank goodness fresh meat!  Gee Andy, it sounds like you are in the perfect position to finally bring this fine discussion group to the attention of the world through the magic of film.  Why not do a sequel, at least in the genre of "Grumpy old Men"?  Now that I've see "About Schmidt", and thinking back to the ability to portray obsessive-compulsive types in "As Good As it Gets" I think JN (not Jack Nicklaus) is perfect to play the part of Mucci.  We are still hoping Bob Newhart will do TEPaul.  Cripes, you don't even need a screen writer, the whole freaking thing is already written here on this insufferable thread.  You can call the movie, "grumpy old men in their pajamas, typing"  Sort of like "riding in cars with boys".

Speaking of Jack Nicholson, can you believe that hump drove that moterhome right by Wild Horse in Gothenburg NE numerous times in "About Schmidt" and didn't even film one scene there!

I'll bet Jack would puke if he saw Sand Pines, after all he is an artist.  

PS:  De Niro is the only guy that can play me.

[Al Gore]

Mr. Rees Jones,

I tried to email you at theopendoctor@usga.org and the message came back.  Is this a good address?  I would really like to discuss some of the things I've said here in a private email.  But, the address doesn't work.

Are you really Rees Jones?

Did you notice that 5000+ people who have an interest in golf course architecture have viewed this thread.  5000+!!!

mdugger,

As the "Inventor of the Internet (IOTI)", I can assure you 5000 people have not viewed this dicussion. Currently GCA has 1446 Registered users plus assorted lurkers. Every time anyone touches this post, it adds to this 5000 number. Since removing myself from running for President, I have gotten sucked into this thread and have probably touched it 100 times myself. Thus I can assure you it was at most 4900 people. My guess as IOTI is that 200 fairly insane golf addicts have seen this thread.

I am not calling you a liar like Pat Mucci  . I am simple saying that you are not too smart .

Al Gore
Inventor of the Internet

PS. Just so you are clear, I am not really Al Gore. If you really want to speak with Rees, call him. Here is his contact info:
http://www.reesjonesinc.com

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I cannot wait to meet you Pat. Who else but you could set a GCA record for most posts about a non golf magazine article. You take the cake for keeping a non discussion alive if any negative mention of your beloved Rees is involved. I will say again. He is a good architect but did as poor a job with a good piece of land at Sandpines as I have ever seen in golf period. It really does not matter the what or who of it all. The architect gets the credit when he has a good client and the blame when he has a poor one. It goes with the territory. Please let this one die Pat.

[Mike Erdmann]

Daniel Wexler & Tim Weiman,

When I asked Tommy Naccarato who the original owner/developer was he responded that it was a Japanese individual who later turned the project over to locals.

My question to all is:
DID THE DEVELOPER FILE BANKRUPTCY ON THIS PROJECT ?

Yes, the original developer did file bankruptcy on the Sandpines project, and I believe that the subsequent buyers did too.  I have a good friend whose family was a part of the development group that did Sandpines.  I'm not sure about Tommy's reference to the Japanese individual....I know some of the money came from Asia but don't know those exact specifics.  Anyways, I think one relevant point here is that towards the end, a significant amount of money (well in excess of $1,000,000) was borrowed at close to 25% interest.   If they were that strapped for cash, I've got to assume that spending large sums of money on dunes stabilization was out of the question.  Just so that nobody misunderstands me, the impact of the availability of capital for the construction budget is speculation on my part, but I know the extraordinarily high borrowing costs to be true.

[Mike_Cirba]

Corey;

Yes, Arcadian Shores in SC was done by Rees, as is Waterway Hills, Gator Hole and a few other early efforts that no longer appear on his website.  I'm not sure why they were omitted from the list.  

[The Bridge Thread]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Williams,

You can't just come in at the beginning and end.
On several occassions I've made my position known,
You'll just have to read through the thread.

Tim Weiman,

MDugger's representation of the Sandpines site was disengenuous to say the least.

How can anybody draw the conclusion reached in (b)
without knowing more about the project.

Mike Erdmann indicates the project went Bankrupt twice.
Obviously money was a problem

Mike Erdmann also indicated that the dunes indigenous to Sandpines were Oblique dunes, not the coastal dunes, and that oblique dunes present serious stabilization problems.
Perhaps the site was not as conducive to building a golf course as it looked to Tommy and others.  And perhaps the lack of money had an impact on design and construction.

Don't discount Mike Erdmann's opinion.  To date, he seems very qualified to provide an evaluation.

It appears that this is a site that few know very much about, yet they are willing to state that the golf course didn't turn out as well as it should have.  How can people with so little information form that definitive conclusion ?

Is it possible that this site isn't as good as people think,
including Tommy Naccarato.  Is it also possible, because of the existance of oblique dunes that in order to build the style of golf course Tommy and others like, that a substantially larger budget would have been required.  For those who have difficulty with reading comprehension, these are questions, not statements.

Tim, I think one could say that there was a rush to judgement on Sandpines.  And, that intelligent conclusions are better drawn when all the material facts are known.  Now it may be, that when all the facts are in, I'll agree with Tommy.
Then again, maybe he'll be proven wrong.
But, before any of us go jumping to conclusions don't you think that there is a lot more that we need to know about Sandpines ?
And, that's all I'm asking, let's obtain all of the material facts, and then draw a prudent conclusion.

Al Gore,

I never called MDugger a liar.

I called his presentation disengenuous and a fraud.

John Bernhardt,

Tommy Naccarato brought the article into the realm of golf course architecture when he posted his pictures and made his comments.  Until that time I had refrained from posting.

I also don't understand, now that we're starting to seperate fact from fiction, why you wouldn't want uncover what actually occured at Sandpines, such that you could make a reasonable assessment of the project and the resulting golf course.

Mike Erdmann,

If you could provide any other information about the project it would be appreciated, especially about the Oblique Dunes, and the problems they create.  Thanks.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Williams,

You can't just come in at the beginning and end.
On several occassions I've made my position known,
You'll just have to read through the thread.

Tim Weiman,

MDugger's representation of the Sandpines site was disengenuous to say the least.

How can anybody draw the conclusion reached in (b)
without knowing more about the project.

Mike Erdmann indicates the project went Bankrupt twice.
Obviously money was a problem

Mike Erdmann also indicated that the dunes indigenous to Sandpines were Oblique dunes, not the coastal dunes, and that oblique dunes present serious stabilization problems.
Perhaps the site was not as conducive to building a golf course as it looked to Tommy and others.  And perhaps the lack of money had an impact on design and construction.

Don't discount Mike Erdmann's opinion.  To date, he seems very qualified to provide an evaluation.

It appears that this is a site that few know very much about, yet they are willing to state that the golf course didn't turn out as well as it should have.  How can people with so little information form that definitive conclusion ?

Is it possible that this site isn't as good as people think,
including Tommy Naccarato.  Is it also possible, because of the existance of oblique dunes that in order to build the style of golf course Tommy and others like, that a substantially larger budget would have been required.  For those who have difficulty with reading comprehension, these are questions, not statements.

Tim, I think one could say that there was a rush to judgement on Sandpines.  And, that intelligent conclusions are better drawn when all the material facts are known.  Now it may be, that when all the facts are in, I'll agree with Tommy.
Then again, maybe he'll be proven wrong.
But, before any of us go jumping to conclusions don't you think that there is a lot more that we need to know about Sandpines ?
And, that's all I'm asking, let's obtain all of the material facts, and then draw a prudent conclusion.

Al Gore,

I never called MDugger a liar.

I called his presentation disengenuous and a fraud.

John Bernhardt,

Tommy Naccarato brought the article into the realm of golf course architecture when he posted his pictures and made his comments.  Until that time I had refrained from posting.

I also don't understand, now that we're starting to seperate fact from fiction, why you wouldn't want uncover what actually occured at Sandpines, such that you could make a reasonable assessment of the project and the resulting golf course.

Mike Erdmann,

If you could provide any other information about the project it would be appreciated, especially about the Oblique Dunes, and the problems they create.  Thanks.

Lastly, when someone comes up with a theory, they have to prove the theory for it to be accepted.
If someone makes a blanket statement with respect to the outcome of the development, design and construction of a golf course, shouldn't they have to prove that theory, or is their word just accepted when it involves bashing Rees ?

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