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Jeff Williams

Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficionado
« on: January 16, 2003, 10:00:52 AM »
"Rees Jones has designed some of the world's top new golf layouts and restored to greatness some of America's most revered courses."

"Jones has designed courses for the privileged and the public, for championships and for recreation. Most of all, he has designed courses to be enjoyed for their shot values, their ebb and flow, their asthetics, and courses to be remembered, not because he designed them, but because he DISCOVERED them."

"'I love to build golf courses that are suggested by the land,' says Jones, 'I love to walk the site and look for holes, look for natural sites for tees and greens, fairways that flow. You have to make golf holes work with a bulldozer, but for the most part you want to discover as many holes as you can rather than create them.'"

"When Robert Rubin wanted to build a golf  course on a magnificent piece of property he owned on Eastern Long Island, he turned to Jones, who had completed nearby Atlantic Golf Club in 1992. ' I see Rees as the CUSTODIAN OF NEOCLASSICAL GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE,' says Rubin. 'This was a very important piece of property in the Hamptons...I wanted a classical course that paid homage to both the land and the (race)track. Rees is an architect with the assurance and the ability to build a course the old way.'"

"'I think one of the reasons I am an accomplished architect is that I like to play golf and I like to walk the great courses,' says Jones. 'I'm really anxious to play them. Playing golf is a learning process anyhow"....

THERE IS MORE, BUT I JUST CAN'T TYPE IT IN
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Architecture Guy

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2003, 10:46:40 AM »
Rees is going to work on NGLA...to lengthen it...Make it harder....and prepare it for possible Walker Cup....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2003, 10:57:58 AM »
architecture guy....I think you are missing the point

Which, by the way, so am I.

Jeff Williams.....where are you trying to go with this.  I sense a little sarcasm, I sense you are merely informing us of an article on a golf course architect.

It is The Bridge that is being mentioned in the article, correct?

Are you implying Rees doesn't work with the land all that well?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2003, 10:57:59 AM »
Who wrote the article?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

The Bridge Thread

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2003, 11:09:58 AM »
Speaking as The Bridge Thread, I cannot let this thread outdo me. Someone please delete it now!

I have been sitting quietly in the archives not bothering anyone, but if I have to I can rear my ugly head once again...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kelly_Blake_Moran

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2003, 12:03:19 PM »
Attention Tony Ristola:

Can you please post the ASGCA Code of Ethics.  I believe we have a violation here.

Two things swirl in my little mind.  First, I remember giving a phone interview to a guy at Crittenden, and after talking about a project I designed on the land, he informed me that was not distinctive because every body else was saying the same thing.  And he never called back.  Second, Brad Klein at Alpine declared every no-name architect will be out of business unless they are doing restoration work, only the big names will be left to do the new work.  

Obviously the press is complicit in this notion by promoting phonies like Jones.  I know specifically of one job currently in the planning stage for which he has made three visits, of which two were parties.  I can only guess that walking the land looking for great holes was not a part of the itinerary, but like most professional writers, I make that statement without doing detailed research work.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Williams

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2003, 02:11:19 PM »
The article is by Jeff Williams
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2003, 02:24:20 PM »

Quote
The article is by Jeff Williams

Too bad it's not by The Bridge Thread -- a MUCH funnier writer!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2003, 10:12:35 PM »
Two statements--

-"Most of all, he has designed courses to be enjoyed for their shot values, their ebb and flow, their asthetics, and courses to be remembered, not because he designed them, but because he DISCOVERED them."

                          AND

-"'I love to build golf courses that are suggested by the land,' says Jones, 'I love to walk the site and look for holes, look for natural sites for tees and greens, fairways that flow. You have to make golf holes work with a bulldozer, but for the most part you want to discover as many holes as you can rather than create them.'"

Well, I have discoved this......................(Rees Pieces mounds shown in red dots.)

Image 1--(43) "Rees Pieces" mounds.

Image 2--(42) "Rees Pieces" mounds.

And a magical pristine lake discovered in the middle of some of the most natural sand dunes.

Amazing........Simply amazing.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2003, 09:31:12 AM »
Wow Tommy! Those mounds look much more natural than any kettle moraine I've seen. ::) I didn't know the glaciers made it to RSF.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2003, 09:30:41 PM »
Kelly:

Am on the road and don't have the codes with me, but I believe this portion of the ASGCA Code could be relevant:

ASGCA GUIDELINES FOR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT (2001) RULE 2:
"A golf course architect shall not indulge in self-laudatory, exaggerated, misleading or false publicity."

As for your last statement about complicity, which is quoted below, I think a good portion this argument is covered in Vol. 1 of Paul Daley's latest book:

"Obviously the press is complicit in this notion by promoting phonies like Jones.  I know specifically of one job currently in the planning stage for which he has made three visits, of which two were parties.  I can only guess that walking the land looking for great holes was not a part of the itinerary, but like most professional writers, I make that statement without doing detailed research work."


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul_Turner

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2003, 10:29:54 PM »
As the instigator of The Bridge Thread, I am confident it will never be surpassed!  

(Was it about 400+ posts?  I'm sure it got zapped.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2003, 10:31:46 PM »
Adam, To let you know, the images are split of the 16th, 17th & 18th at Sandpines-Golf On The Oregon Dunes.

Hard to believe, but this "site" was pure as pure can get, Oregon Coastal Dunes less then a half mile from the Pacific ocean. You can see the rest of the property back there in the distance, which is pure sand.  To further, what you also don't see in these photos are the two beautiful watertanks that grace the property and can be seen from almost the entire course.

Sandpines is one of the GREAT tragedies in the game of Golf. It looks as if Rees walked the course from the confines of his desk in New Jersey. One look at the simplicity of the routing will prove this. It would also seem that he does this quite often on many other projects.

Do I sound bitter? well, yes, when it comes to wasting perfect land like this, yes.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2003, 07:24:51 AM »
Tommy

Those pics look like a carbon copy of The Oxfordshire in England, another Rees Jones course.  The land couldn't be more different (farm) and yet the courses look so alike!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2003, 07:40:50 AM »
Thanx Tommy, I can see what your saying the sand in the distance wouldv'e been a nice motiff to carry to throughout the hole, but I see none of it. I do like brown grasses but probably not in verdant oregon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy 65

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2003, 04:05:53 PM »
Tommy, I thought it was "timeless, unparalleled" Falcon's Fire outside Orlando, FL.  Must mean those mounds are signature design features.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2003, 07:39:21 PM »
All,
I guess most will think I'm picking on Rees again. Their right.

Oxfordshire, England--what are the chances of somebody being able to compare two courses some 5200 miles apart?

I can almost picture it, when Greg Muirhea.....I mean Rees, :)was "WALKING" these sites, and was thinking, "Well, we dont have a lot of time with this one because we are so busy, and I don't want to spend all sorts of time in Middleofnowhereandhardtogetto, Oregon, I'm just going to pull up the files on my computer of Oxfordshire and place them in this real easy-to-work, sandy site. No one will ever no the difference!"

And then something called "the internet" was born, and with it, came a website dedicated to celebrating GREAT golf architecture while calling to task the inappropriate

I'm sure that was way beyond even Rees imagination while taking one of his famous walks.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2003, 08:01:31 PM »
Does Jeff Williams work for Rees? If he doesn't Rees should hire him to do PR, just like the entertaining Red Hoffman did for his old man. In the tradition of Red maybe Rees should consider hiring another NJ native, Matt Ward.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Robert Hooke

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2003, 08:28:53 PM »
The Oxfordshire:











« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2003, 09:02:33 PM »
Don't go too hard on Rees ... he's just doing the same thing every other architect in America is doing ... saying what sounds good.

I was just skimming through the latest T&L GOLF on my flight to LA and there's an article on Jack Nicklaus' designs, where Jack is quoted as saying his designs have evolved and he likes to have as much variety as possible ... the last thing he wants is for someone to get up on the first tee and say to themselves, it's another Nicklaus course!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2003, 09:57:36 PM »
Tommy Naccarato,

I've never been to Sandpines, but I'm curious about the course and the holes pictured.

Who owns Sandpines ?
Who was the developer ?
Why did they pick Rees ?
Where is Sandpines ?

Are the holes pictured par 3's, 4's or 5's ?

How do the holes pictured play ?

Are the mounds outside an angle of 15 degrees from the centerline of the fairway ?

I think style and strategy have to be seperated and judged independently.  

I'm not so sure I'd condemn a hole solely because of the presence of off-line mounding, hence I'm interested in your evaluation regarding the strategy and playability of the holes pictured.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2003, 11:06:20 PM »
Pat, I don't think you want to get in a Sandpines fight with me because you will lose--period!

But, I will tell you what I will do. I'm going to take the Mucci-view of things here and say........You have NO opinion in this because you have never played Sandpines! That is all--End of Story!:)

Now get on the phone or email and tell Matt Ward to post on it! But, I must warn you that I have a card up my sleeve for that one too!:)

Better yet, get on the phone with me tomorrow and we can talk all about it!

I realize that you are going to stick up for your Rees Peanut Butter Cup, however, this is one that I think you would even find great fault in if you saw for yourself what a waste of the most prime piece of property that it was.

And by the way, I liked Santa Luz! (except for the ugly bunkering!)(This way we can remove the Mucci-bias from the thread)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2003, 11:11:15 PM »
Tom thank you for saving me from saying "I am going to puke after reading this". Yes he is being the promoter which is what he does best. Mac Brown is one of those in football. All puff and no substance.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2003, 12:26:41 AM »
Pat, thought about it some more and I will answer your questions since they are viable questions.

-Who owns Sandpines ? Originally it was a Japanese developer, but I think he has since sold to locals.
-Who was the developer ?Quite obviously it wasn't Ken Bakst or Mike Keiser. I think this says it all for you developers out there looking-in. Try to copy their modus operandi. It has value and substance when it comes to the high art and spirit of the Game.
-Why did they pick Rees ? Couldn't answer that one for you Pat. I know I wouldn't have, but that's me. Also, I think the finished product speaks for itself. They obviously made the wrong choice. At least for a development in Oregon.
-Where is Sandpines ? Sandpines is in the city of Florence, Oregon, some 45+ minutes west of Eugene. It is a wonderful little coastal town, like so many others on the undeniably beautiful Oregon Coast. From Bandon Dunes, it is just about 55-65 minutes tops, and only because you have to reduce your speed through some of the little towns and villages along the way.  My entire family has been going to Florence every year for many, many years, long before there was a Sandpines. We always stay at one place, on Siltcoos Lake, at some small fishing cabins that have a character all of their own.  Since I don't really fish, I golf. I find Sandpines so depressing, and to see this perfect site for golf, taken for granted....Is really not a good feeling. This is exactly what Rees did here--he took the site completely for granted.

-Are the holes pictured par 3's, 4's or 5's ? The holes pictures are holes 16, 17 & 18, and they play as a par 4, (not a bad hole, actually one of the better ones.) a par 3, and a protoypical par 5 Cape that could be placed in a Palm Springs backdrop, and still look it fit the bill of mass earthmovement, like most facilities in the Desert. In truth,  the three holes remind me of something Perry Dye did, trying to emulate his Father.

How do the holes pictured play ? I don't know how to answer that one Pat, because usually I'm so pissed-off about the waste of this place, the last holes add insult to injury. The prevailing wind is coming from the southwest, cross-cutting the 16, so it is sort of in the strong winds. The left fairway bunker is one of the best bunkers on the course, but that is only because the superintendent rebuilt it differently after the wind kept on blowing the sand out of the protoypical Rees-bunkers throughout the course. I have been told by architects and well-seasoned construction people that this was simply because that style of bunker will not work in really windy areas, and you have to realize that is one of the main characteristics of the Oregon Dunes--wind. Now an argument could come from some that building the containment was to shelter the fairways from the wind, but I think this is a prime spot for an architect to get himself in a lot of trouble design-wise. You simply cannot fool Mother Nature or even protect it because Nature finds a way to create a dramatic havoc for anything that wants to be uniformed, sharp-edged and neat. Nature isn't perfect and that is what makes it SO perfect. \

All of the shaping--more specifically--those mounds do not reflect the natural characteristics of what is going on and around the magnificent Oregon Dunes, The routing has to be just as bad, characteristically, not because it is situated perfectly below the clubhouse, but because simply anyone can see through simply study that it was done from a desktop/workstation, rather then a map and spray can in hand.

There is not one spectacular/interesting natural feature that has been utilized. It has all been dozered away into an oblivion. (Trust me, I could go on and on about this one and still not be close to finished.

-Are the mounds outside an angle of 15 degrees from the centerline of the fairway ? Pat, is thisome sort of prescribed form of measurement devised by Clonaid? I'm not Raelian, so I don't know, but I can say that I have never seen more cloned mounds in all of my travels. Its really kind of haunting.

-I think style and strategy have to be seperated and judged independently. I know that you think that.

Pat, to close, I think that from the tee, Sandpines, with the incredible width of some of its fairways, prescribes to all types of play. Its just that the Game should have more meaning and character when in such a unique site, especially for such rank amateurs like myself.

When in such a beautiful place like the Oregon Dunes, beauty should be one of the most important factors, and if the architect did his job right, he would have been utilizing NATURAL features that could have further ensured playing options that quite possibly have never, ever been seen before.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Andy Hodson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Rees Jones article in Cigar Aficianado
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2003, 08:16:15 AM »
John, John, John

No you didn't!

Here I am going along, reading another Rees thread, this time between Pat and Tommy (these threads always get reduced into contests), enjoying the give-and-take, being enlightened by Tommy's fine arguments as to the artificiality of Sandpines' design, and...

You bring in Mack Brown's name!

Since it is now 3 weeks after the Cotton Bowl, I would have thought the bitterness had subsided. Maybe it has, and what I now sense is JEALOUSY. Admit it, you and the rest of Tiger nation would love  to have Mack and his 11-win seasons in Baton Rouge.

You will look great with burnt orange on your head.

Fellows, sorry to hijack the thread. I now will give it back.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »