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Brian_Gracely

What is great golf architecture?
« on: July 16, 2005, 08:26:10 PM »
Simple question, isn't it?  "Great" has a definition in the dictionary, but seems to be so complicated for a subjective topic like GCA.  

So what makes a course great?  

Is it strictly the strategic or penal nature of the holes?

Should it include an ecomonic element, such as how often the locals (or members) play the course, again and again?

Should it include the ability to reasonably maintain the course, or if the maintenance overly burdens the course (financially, playability, requiring frequent changes, etc..)?

Should it matter what else the architect has built?  Does the course have to compliment or enhance the overall portfolio of the architect, or can it be the one-hit wonder in a portfolio?

Should it take into consideration the types of events it could hold? (professional championships, amateur championships, member-guests, ladies 9 hole league, etc..)

Is it realistic to separate the golf course from the golf experience?  Remember, this is not art in a museum (behind a glass case), but rather the playing field for a game/sport.    

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2005, 09:39:01 PM »
Brian,

When this thread had run it's course, I firmly believe that one element of greatness will remain unexplainable.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2005, 09:50:00 PM »
Is it strictly the strategic or penal nature of the holes?

Perhaps, but the setting is also important.  I can't think of too many great courses that don't have great natural sites with lots of drama.  I think a great course is one that fits the site perfectly, but not at the expense of quality golf for better players.  Torrey Pines falls short of greatness on a great site, because the golf was never as great as the views.

Should it include an ecomonic element, such as how often the locals (or members) play the course, again and again?

Not really.  Some of the great courses don't make financial sense, but they are great anyway (as long as the last)

Should it include the ability to reasonably maintain the course, or if the maintenance overly burdens the course (financially, playability, requiring frequent changes, etc..)?

With money, you can maintain anything, so I would say no.  It should focus on the architectural feeling.

Should it matter what else the architect has built?  Does the course have to compliment or enhance the overall portfolio of the architect, or can it be the one-hit wonder in a portfolio?

No, then we would be considering a great architect, wouldn't we?

Should it take into consideration the types of events it could hold? (professional championships, amateur championships, member-guests, ladies 9 hole league, etc..)

Tournament golf is such a small portion of the game, I don't think so, but many would consider a challenge suitalbe for the best players in the game a prerequisite.

Is it realistic to separate the golf course from the golf experience?  Remember, this is not art in a museum (behind a glass case), but rather the playing field for a game/sport

I think so, if you mean the periphial experience to golf. An example is Palmetto in Aiken, SC. Not presumptious, modest clubhouse, etc.  Sand Hills would be a modern example of the same idea. Although the facilities are nice, your experience really starts on the first tee.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dale_McCallon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2005, 10:23:45 PM »
Actually "great" golf architecture is easy to define for most.  For the majority of your everyday "Joe SixPack" player, great means one of two things.  Either they have seen the course host a tournament, or it is a very well manicured course.  They don't care who designed it, they don't care about the routing, the bunkering, the mounds, etc.  They just want to enjoy playing.

But on this site, we argue too much about every possible detail to ever determine greatness.  This course sucks because Fazio ruined the bunkers.  I hate this course because they have a valet get your clubs.  This course made me pay to rate it  ;D.  The list goes on and on.  

Even the only course on here that everyone seems to praise (Sand Hills), we can't decide why. Is it the greens, the moon scape feelling in the fairways, the atmosphere on Ben's Porch, etc.  

So if you look at it like this, it seems like Joe SixPack does it the right way--they know if they have had fun, they have played a great course.  Maybe we could all learn a little bit (or probably a whole lot) from those "unwashed masses".


Jimbo

Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2005, 11:35:58 PM »
A huge question. Not simple at all.

The boring but true answer:   The resulting product of the architect within the constraints he is given.

His creativity, the budget he has to work with, the opportunities and restraints of the site,  the climate he's working with, the talent he has available to him for shaping and construction, the support and understanding his design gets from future ownership and management, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY  how the finished product meets owner expectations.

I would argue that the most gaudy waterfall-laden, wide-fairway, big-green, let-them-shoot-a-good-score, easily-maintainable-CCFAD that makes enough money for the single owner (or sells property, or makes the 70+ crowd happy, or makes members of other courses envious)  is the result of of work that can only be done by via great architecture.  

I would also argue that the muni that can look and play reasonable okay despite  single row irrigation and a 3-man maintenance crew and that serves the needs of the community and provides cheap golf that the city can afford is the result of great architecture.  An architect used to huge budgets couldn't do one of these easily.

I would further argue that a site like that which underlies Sand Hills, or Bandon, or St. Andrews, or linksland , blessed with sandy conditions and an ownership that was in tune with what most of this board considers great golf could be handled by a less than great golf course architect, and his deficiencies would never be known.

"Is it strictly the strategic or penal nature of the holes?"
I started trying this recently:  Design on paper 10 par 4's, 4 par 5's, and 4 par 3's.  You will soon realize that there is a finite number of geometric combinations you can come up with to desing the holes themselves.  Yeah, there are a bunch of minor permutations you can come up with, and throw in some elevation changes, trees, etc., and you can squeeze a few more out.  No, its definitely not the strategy that makes great architecture.  Especially when only 5% or less can enjoy the strategy as players.

Bracing for volleys,

Jimbo
 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2005, 07:23:56 AM »
A great site brilliantly executed
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

A_Clay_Man

Re:What is great golf architecture?
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2005, 08:15:57 AM »
Bobby Jones said that there's always a way, about TOC.
So, using that as a model...and, Having never been fortunate to find-out personally, I find that aspect the most appealing to the great ones I have been fortunate to golf.

Isn't that what makes water and trees so weak?