[Kyle Harris]

So, just where do you add a pot bunker on a 150 yard wide fairway such that it would add strategic interest?

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas, I'm just providing a second front.  

Think of it as a WMD justification --

Yes, and just about as valid.  

[Rick Shefchik]

So, just where do you add a pot bunker on a 150 yard wide fairway such that it would add strategic interest?

Kyle -- I'll leave that one up to Shivas. But I guarantee that wherever he put it, I'd hit into it.

[Brian_Gracely]

Dave,

You're falling into the trap that for a course to be great, every hole needs to be a hard-core strategic challenge and an ass-kicker hole.  You've fallen into the trap of looking at the course in pieces vs. viewing it as a whole.  

The merit of #18 is:

- OB right, left and long (don't laugh at left, both Tiger and Phil both almost went there last week)

- OB long on the approach

- Short par4 (remember, some people think that's a cool concept) that allows you to go for the green or layup.

- Going for the green might put you on the green (few guys actually finished on the surface), might put you in the VoS, or might put you 30-70 yards from the hole.

- Do you putt or pitch from 30-70yds from the hole?  This would cause Shivas great mental stress because his wedge is his kryptonite and the broom-handle is not adapt at long lag-putting.  

- You have the pressure of playing in front of the R&A clubhouse, and anyone walking along the streets.  


...but all of that aside, let's get to the real merit of the hole...

The Scots are a people that understand that golf is just an aspect of life, and hopefully something to be enjoyed.  After spending 3hrs on TOC, and probably not making 4 on #17, they realized that it would be uplifting to the spirit to have a chance to redeem yourself and make you feel better about yourself as you head to the pub.  So they created the 18th hole to be only moderately challenging, but still somewhat challenging as it requires short-game skill and the weather could be a factor.  So it allows you to potentially make 2, 3 or 4 and feel good about yourself for the rest of the day.

And that my friends, is the lesson of life and golf that TOC teaches us and that we should consider adopting for the game we play at home.  If only traffic at the end of a long work-day was so enjoyable....

[Mike_Cirba]

Gracely,

I'm glad you're on my team.

Well done.  

[Rick Shefchik]

...but all of that aside, let's get to the real merit of the hole...

The Scots are a people that understand that golf is just an aspect of life, and hopefully something to be enjoyed.  After spending 3hrs on TOC, and probably not making 4 on #17, they realized that it would be uplifting to the spirit to have a chance to redeem yourself and make you feel better about yourself as you head to the pub.  So they created the 18th hole to be only moderately challenging, but still somewhat challenging as it requires short-game skill and the weather could be a factor.  So it allows you to potentially make 2, 3 or 4 and feel good about yourself for the rest of the day.

The first part of Brian's post does nothing to change my opinion, because all of the merits of the hole that he lists would still be there after a little pot bunker was installed.

As for the second part, I find it revisionist hogwash, but lovely revisionist hogwash, and the best reason I've read here to leave it the way it is.

[PThomas]

for the record, Mr. Bennett is correct:  I should have posted that I would venture that 18 played the easiest it ever has...I do not know that for a fact

thanks James!

[Gary_Nelson]

I think the 18th is a great hole BECAUSE it is defenseless and short.  Birdies are expected.  Eagles are possible.  Pars are giving up a stroke to the field.

The 18th puts pressure on the player by forcing him to make birdie.   I don't understand a good reason to add more to this par 3 1/2 hole.   Skewing it up towards a solid par 4 takes away the mental pressure of having to make birdie.

[Brent Hutto]

Gary has it correct. Just like a 520-yard hole that's designated a Par 5. I've seen good players after an important round much more disappointed by making 5 on a "birdie hole" than they are by making a 5 on a long Par 4.

[Jim Nugent]

Jim Nugent/Shivas,

The Old Course has been it's present configuration since, oh, about 100 years ago.  

That includes Old Tom, Jim Barnes, Bobby Jones, Walter Hagen, Sam Snead, etc, etc. etc. through Tiger Woods.

Yes, some new tees have been added over the years (and again this past year) to keep up with the crazy technological arms race.   But the basic layouts, holes, shot angles, greens, bunkers and other features have remained unchanged.  

The basic routing of holes and most of the bunkers have been there much, much longer.  

And I am not suggesting changing the basic routing, or most of the bunkers.  I agree with Shivas´ idea: add one bunker to the 18th.  Try it out.  If it´s a failure, fill it in.  If it seems to work well, then we have made a great course even greater.  What is the cost in that?

They have added bunkers to TOC, and within the last 100 years, too.  They have filled in others.  They have added hundreds of yards of length, including around 300 since 1995, and narrowed fairways.    

Why is Shivas´ idea such sacrilege -- especially when it can be corrected if it doesn´t work?

[Brent Hutto]

Why is Shivas´ idea such sacrilege -- especially when it can be corrected if it doesn´t work?

Because it reifies the idea that no shot on a major championship course should go unchallenged.

The only reason for such a bunker would be to force the players to choose between otherwise unnecessarily conservative play off the tee and the possibility of a big number. That shot presents a one-sided challenge for the strong player--what is the best way to make birdie or maybe eagle. There are plenty of other shots on the Old Course to present a tradeoff between "best way to make birdie" and "least likely to make a big number". A round of golf does not need to be unrelentingly dangerous to make for a good medal play championship.

[Kyle Harris]

So yeah... where do you place this strategic bunker?

[George Pazin]

Then you move it every few years to combat the longer players.....

Maybe you could mount it on wheels so you could adjust it with the wind.

Or maybe we could just have one frickin' birdie finishing hole on the planet.

 

Leave the old girl be.

More than a few players have said the added rough at ANGC helps them focus. Maybe a bunker on 18 would do the same thing. So it would put a little more pressure on the tee shot. So what! Maybe the lack of pressure causes guys to swing away and go more off-line than they otherwise would.

[A_Clay_Man]

This whole shivas argument reminds me of Seinfeld. More specifically, how Seinfeld failed when it was introduced in the German market. Ya see, the deutch just couldn't get behind the noton that the show was about nothing.

Can the same be true about the 18th's strategy? The simplicity to lull the golfer who ventured a thought that once he/she holed-out on 17 the test was basically over.

Other thoughts include, Isnt the same fix for the 15th at Pebble?
And,
Is this how the road to hell gets paved?

[Rick Shefchik]

Can the same be true about the 18th's strategy? The simplicity to lull the golfer who ventured a thought that once he/she holed-out on 17 the test was basically over....

Is this how the road to hell gets paved?

That's the two-part defense position in a nutshell:
The test is over -- and should be -- once you reach the 18th tee; and if you change one blade of grass on any hole at TOC, we're on our way to Hell.

I've reluctantly accepted the first part (the Gracely Grace Note); I'm still having a very tough time with the second part.

[Mike_Cirba]

George/Adam;

Bravo.

A bunker on wheels...love it.

The road to hell...even better.

Perhaps we can create a bunker on wheels and drive it on the Road Hole to Hell?  

As Jim Nugent points out, let's just roll it to another place every day and see how it works out.  If it is good, keep it, then roll to another place and perhaps put one there too...

Transient, temporal golf course architecture at the Old Course...a wonderful concept!  

Jim Nugent,

What new bunkers have been added or removed from TOC in the past 100 years?

[Jim Nugent]

Here´s an idea inspired by all you "I-love-having-a-par-3.5-closing-hole"  disciples.   What´s good for the greatest course in the world could have merit at other courses as well...

1.  Augusta National.  Move the 18th tee up 120 yards...fill in a trap or two around the green...add a swale to the front left (affectionately call it Cliff´s Canyon).  325 yard dogleg uphill par 3.6 with a blind tee shot.  

2.  Pebble.  New tee will stand around where the trees are in the fairway.  295 yard carry to the green.   Crowd goes wild as Tiger lances a three-wood 15 feet from the cup...groans while Mickelson pushes his drive into the ocean.  

3.  Riviera.  Not 18 but 10...and not adding bunkers, but taking them out.  It´s all too difficult to hit the green with those pesky things in the way.  

Hey, this is fun!  Bet I can come up with similar concepts at  many other courses!  

Do you think George might offer me a job?

[Jim Nugent]

George/Adam;

Bravo.

A bunker on wheels...love it.

The road to hell...even better.

Perhaps we can create a bunker on wheels and drive it on the Road Hole to Hell?  

As Jim Nugent points out, let's just roll it to another place every day and see how it works out.  If it is good, keep it, then roll to another place and perhaps put one there too...

Transient, temporal golf course architecture at the Old Course...a wonderful concept!  

Jim Nugent,

What new bunkers have been added or removed from TOC in the past 100 years?

Mike, from an article by Ron Whitten in Golf Digest:  "The last bunkers were added to the Old Course in the early 1930s; the last one filled in was in 1949."  (http://www.golfdigest.com/majors/britishopen/index.ssf?/majors/britishopen/gd200507whitten.html)

Also, it appears the changes this year DID involve some new angles.  From PGA. com:  "The changes start with the second tee, which has been moved back 40 yards and to the right, so that players now face a blind tee shot over gorse bushes. Brad Faxon decided to aim at a crane in the distance, and only later figured out that the door of a corporate chalet was a better target."

[Brian_Gracely]

Shivas,

What happens in 2010 when the leaders all decide that the ground is rock hard, and a shot could bounce right and OB, and many of them just decide to layup short of the bunker and hit a flip wedge into the green?  

How happy will you be to watch that in the last pairing of the Open?  

[Brent Hutto]

Brian,

With no sarcasm intended, I'd say then in 2010 Shivas will have accomplished exactly what he intended to do. Relegate eagle a do-or-die proposition that makes no sense for a player in contention on the weekend. Make more bogeys (poor wedge shot and three putts) than without the bunker while keeping the birdie rate about the same. Now the hole will be normalized to a generic easy two-shotter and the number of offbeat holes in the Open rota will be decreased by one. A clear win for strategic design (OK, that last was sarcastic).

[Brian_Gracely]

Brent,

What if they dug the bunker and used it for Thursday and Friday, and if not enough guys made eagle or double, then they fill it in for the weekend?  Maybe Rolex or RBS could sponsor a "Fill the Hole" contest and 1000 winners could each throw in a few shovels full of dirt.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike, from an article by Ron Whitten in Golf Digest:  "The last bunkers were added to the Old Course in the early 1930s; the last one filled in was in 1949."  (http://www.golfdigest.com/majors/britishopen/index.ssf?/majors/britishopen/gd200507whitten.html)

Also, it appears the changes this year DID involve some new angles.  From PGA. com:  "The changes start with the second tee, which has been moved back 40 yards and to the right, so that players now face a blind tee shot over gorse bushes. Brad Faxon decided to aim at a crane in the distance, and only later figured out that the door of a corporate chalet was a better target."

Jim,

You are using the fact that no bunkers have been added to TOC in 70 years (since Babe Ruth was in his prime) as justification for tearing it up again?  

As far as the new tees, once again you guys are avoiding the real problem.  It's the TECHNOLOGY and the distance that our friends at the R&A and USGA are letting the ball fly.  

There's a simple reason that target angles are being compromised.

They are running out of freaking room!!!!!, to the point where they now have tees OB on adjoining courses!  

If you keep changing courses to accommodate unchecked technology, how long will any of our 15,000 courses last?

One bad idea doesn't justify another bad idea.  

[Brian_Gracely]

They are running out of freaking room!!!!!, to the point where they now have tees OB on adjoining courses!  

Mike,

Maybe you're onto something!!  Why should the R&A limit themselves to holding the Open on only one course?  With all the land from the other courses, think about how many strategic holes could be created if they use tees (or maybe a green or two) from the different courses....and rotate them from day to day.  It would really take the course back to the days when the farmers just hit the ball in whatever direction and found holes as needed.

[Brian_Gracely]

What possible relevence can fans' happiness/excitement have to do with this?  This is the reason we get the goofy golf golf courses we get.  Call it the Train Wreck Trap.  Most of the putrid holes you see on TV are the result of design in anticipation of the Train Wreck Trap, and now you want to bring that type of thinking to The Old Course??

Counselor,

You're not pulling that Law School Jedi Mind-Trick on me!!  I'm not the one that's suggesting changes to the course, you are.  You're the one that's saying that more eagles weren't made because the shot is too easy .  

You're basically saying that because their focus is not drawn to something precise, and because they don't have to aim very accurately, that they are making MORE birdies and pars?

And maybe if the basket was slightly smaller, that Shaq would make more of his free-throws?  

[Jim Nugent]

Mike, from an article by Ron Whitten in Golf Digest:  "The last bunkers were added to the Old Course in the early 1930s; the last one filled in was in 1949."  (http://www.golfdigest.com/majors/britishopen/index.ssf?/majors/britishopen/gd200507whitten.html)

Also, it appears the changes this year DID involve some new angles.  From PGA. com:  "The changes start with the second tee, which has been moved back 40 yards and to the right, so that players now face a blind tee shot over gorse bushes. Brad Faxon decided to aim at a crane in the distance, and only later figured out that the door of a corporate chalet was a better target."

Jim,

You are using the fact that no bunkers have been added to TOC in 70 years (since Babe Ruth was in his prime) as justification for tearing it up again?  

As far as the new tees, once again you guys are avoiding the real problem.  It's the TECHNOLOGY and the distance that our friends at the R&A and USGA are letting the ball fly.  

There's a simple reason that target angles are being compromised.

They are running out of freaking room!!!!!, to the point where they now have tees OB on adjoining courses!  

If you keep changing courses to accommodate unchecked technology, how long will any of our 15,000 courses last?

One bad idea doesn't justify another bad idea.  

Mike, I was partly responding to what you wrote earlier, that no bunkers had been added for over 100 years.  I did not reprint the entire article, whose main point was that the course has always evolved.  

Here is Whitten´s first paragraph:  "The story of the Old Course at St. Andrews, Scotland, host of the British Open for a record 27th time July 14-17, is one of evolution.  During the past 240 years, the Old Course has grown from a primitive, makeshift routing -- a Cro-Magnon of a golf course -- into a salient links full of intrigue and surprise, a layout capable of testing the game's very best players armed with the very latest in equipment."

Back in 1820, TOC apparently measured to around 6300 yards.  Old Tom Morris was one of the modern course´s chief architects: he made changes large and small for 39 years, including moving the 18th green, moving the 1st green, deepening bunkers.  

In the early 20th century they made the course several hundred yards longer, and added pot bunkers.  This was to combat the longer distances the new balls traveled.  (Hmmm, sound familiar?)

The course is now 700 yards longer still, with longer carries to the fairway, extra bunkers through the 1930´s, some tighter landing areas, and at least one new driving angle.  

In other words, TOC has constantly changed, and always for the same reason: to keep up with the new-technology/player times.  We can certainly debate whether adding the Shivas bunker is a good idea.  (Though again the simple way is to test it and find out...Sandbox, I really enjoyed your reaction to this, and given your nom nominate you as the first sand shoveler.)  Appealing to tradition, which in this case does not even hold, does not answer the question of whether the suggested change has merit.  

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