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Paul Richards

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Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« on: July 14, 2005, 08:02:05 AM »
With the year now half over, and the golf season for us Chicagoans about half over as well, was wondering what new courses excited y'all the most so far this year.


What's the buzz?


What are the best new public and privates?


Thanks in advance.

"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Craig Van Egmond

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2005, 08:49:16 AM »

I thought Bandon Trails was the only course that opened this year.   ;)

Jim Franklin

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2005, 09:02:00 AM »
Greywalls in Marquette has been my favorite new course so far this year. It is a treat to play if you don't mind some quirky bounces. In a few years when it is a little more mature, it will be even better.

I am scheduled to play Old Sandwich in a few weeks so I am really looking forward to that.
Mr Hurricane

Matt_Ward

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2005, 09:28:11 AM »
Pradera by Jim Engh is well done just outside of Denver.

I hope to play Greywalls later this year.

Jim Franklin

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 10:05:45 AM »
I will second Matt's opinion of Pradera. Very well done, but in a tough category. I understand the early leader in the clubhouse for Best New Private is the renovation at MPCC.
Mr Hurricane

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2005, 12:19:18 PM »
How about the best course to close this year?

Andrew Cunningham

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2005, 07:27:45 PM »
My vote MPCC Shore.  What about May River in SC?

cary lichtenstein

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2005, 07:37:06 PM »
Courses I have played that qualify this year:

Monterey Peninsula: wonderful work by Mike Strantz
May River: wonderful work by Jim Lippe for Nicklaus
Lakota Canyon: ditto by Jim Engh
 
Will play later this year:

Greywalls: I hear Mike DeVries did a great job

Courses I will play next year that I hear are excellent:

Bandon Trails by C & C
Pronghorn by Chris Cochran for Nicklaus
Ballyneal by Tom Doak
Tumble Creek by Tom Doak
Pacific Dunes by Tom Doak
Canyon River by Schmidt?Curley
Snake River by Tom Weiskopf
Columbia Reserve by Schmidt/Curley

« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 07:41:23 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2005, 09:05:38 PM »
Unfortunately, I've yet to play a course opened in late 2004 or 2005 that I think would qualify as one of the best.  

The best among those I've played is Vineyards at Renault Winery in NJ, by Ed Shearon, which features some terrific, classically derived holes on the front nine and then is somewhat a letdown.   Probably a 5 on the Doak scale.

The worst among those I've played is Raven's Claw in PA, by Ed Shearon, which features some of the most awkward holes and clunky shaping I've seen in a while and where most of the golfable land is housing.  Probably a 0 on the Doak scale.

The biggest disappointment might have to be the Hurdzan/Fry 27 hole public course extravaganza in NJ called Neshanic Valley with a routing leading to multiple holes where the architects ran them along wetlands, making for rather unpleasant lost balls throughout the round.  It's also bland as an old sock.  At most, a Doak Scale 4, generously.  If this is their new, minimalist philosophy, give me Hamilton Farms or Sand Barrens any day.

Makefield Highlands by Rick Jacobson in Bucks County, PA is pretty damn good, on a decent rolling property.  It has some superb short par fours, but I found the earthworks there both unnecessary and distracting.  
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 09:07:45 PM by Mike Cirba »

Kyle Harris

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2005, 09:23:12 PM »
I second that re: Makefield, a lot of great green sites with unnecessary (IMO) framing mounding. A brutal start to both nines as well (Par 4s over 430 yards).

Two drivable par 4s on a course more than 7000 yards is refreshing. Also, two of the par 5s are reachable.

I love the green sites and contours, and the little chipping areas and nuances around the greenside bunkers and greens though.

PThomas

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2005, 10:40:13 PM »
Mike C:  has Raven's CLaw replaced the CC of the Pocanos(?) (the one over a zillion acres)as (one of?) your least favorite???????
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2005, 08:37:12 AM »
Paul Thomas,

The short answer is "no".

Although both courses are part of housing developments, CCOTPABR is built on 1200 acres, and Jim Fazio had no excuse for not finding good holes on a routing that covers 12 miles!!

Ravens Claw, on the other hand, had me thinking that Ed Shearon the architect must have been nonplussed when he saw the abrupt land he was given to work with.  It's a course that probably shouldn't have beeen built, given the land planning.  

Eric Pevoto

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2005, 09:04:37 AM »
CCOTPABR

That must look good on a shirt.
There's no home cooking these days.  It's all microwave.Bill Kittleman

Golf doesn't work for those that don't know what golf can be...Mike Nuzzo

Mike_Cirba

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2005, 09:08:04 AM »
CCOTPABR

That must look good on a shirt.

Yes, be afraid, be VERY afraid, of any course that contains the word "The" capitalized and also contains more than 4 words, as in "Country Club of The Poconos at Big Ridge".  ;)

Matt Vandelac

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2005, 09:42:02 AM »
Although I admit I am a bit biased (I am employed there), our golf course in Northwest WI is up for consideration this year.  Big Fish Golf Club in Hayward, WI is a Pete Dye / Tim Liddy creation that stumbled out of the block from a business standpoint, but is steadily gaining momentum as a great golf course.  We had a lot of talent on the job and Pete and Tim have something to be very proud of.  The layout has the intangables that help create a memorable, fun, challenging experience that keeps people coming back and the word of mouth is rapidly spreading.  Agrinomically we have awesome velvet greens, bent and fescue doing great in fairways and tees, and native areas maturing nicely.  So far the consensus among raters has been very positive; hopefully some of you can make the trip!

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2005, 09:46:22 AM »
I'll be playing Pradera in Colorado soon. Another Engh course(private) is about to open in Phoenix- Blackstone Country Club. This is NOT a mountain course so let's see what Engh can do in this type of site.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

George Pazin

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2005, 10:11:41 AM »
Although I admit I am a bit biased (I am employed there), our golf course in Northwest WI is up for consideration this year.  Big Fish Golf Club in Hayward, WI is a Pete Dye / Tim Liddy creation that stumbled out of the block from a business standpoint, but is steadily gaining momentum as a great golf course.  We had a lot of talent on the job and Pete and Tim have something to be very proud of.  The layout has the intangables that help create a memorable, fun, challenging experience that keeps people coming back and the word of mouth is rapidly spreading.  Agrinomically we have awesome velvet greens, bent and fescue doing great in fairways and tees, and native areas maturing nicely.  So far the consensus among raters has been very positive; hopefully some of you can make the trip!

Matt, welcome to the site, don't be shy, please start another thread and tell us more about your course.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2005, 04:03:26 PM »
Makefield Highlands by Rick Jacobson in Bucks County, PA is pretty damn good, on a decent rolling property.  It has some superb short par fours, but I found the earthworks there both unnecessary and distracting.  

I’ll preface this post by saying that Makefield Highlands is now my home course which I have played approx. 20 times.

I definitely think the design should be considered in the Best New category for 2005, but there is one thing about the course that still bugs me and I’d love to get your thoughts on it:

I can’t stand the #13th hole.  This par 4 measures 284 yds. from the tips but is most often played from the blue tees by low handicappers at 268 yds.  It is slight dogleg left, flat to slightly down hill to the green and plays less then the yardage if you go right at the green.  The lay-up landing area is a blind plateau, and the mound also blocks your view of the right hand side of the green.  Over or right of the green is dead – a severe slope runs downhill at least 30 feet below and away from the green.

Here’s why I don’t like the hole – it tempts the player to try and attempt the heroic shot to the green but doesn’t reward the player, even if the shot is hit well.  Driver / 3 wood shots never hold the green, you can rarely see the balls land on the surface, and are usually lost balls if they go over.  The smart play is to lay-up to the blind plateau with a mid-iron and have a three quarter wedge downhill.  No ground game options on the approach, bland green, bunkers don’t come into play. Throw in the safety hazards of not being able to see groups in the fairway or on the green (no bell either) and it is not a good hole in my book.  

I wish they would lower the plateau, move the tees up and slope the green from right to left creating a nice redan.  Sure it would mean back to back par 3’s but that has worked at Cypress and Bandon, (though I am not comparing MH’s holes to those).

Interestingly enough, at first glance the design of #13 is very similar to #5 which plays 317 yds from the blue tees.  However, I love #5 because it addresses all the issues that #13 does not.  You can hit driver over the hazards and still keep the ball near the putting surface.  A wonderful small bunker and a tree left of the dogleg guard the green, causing havoc for those who attempt to drive the green, less so for those who lay up.  The green is also fairly narrow and diagonal to the lay-up area, requiring precise approach shots for those who lay-up but rewarding the heroic shots.

As far as the rest of the course goes, there are some wonderful holes (in addition to #5).  You’d be hard pressed to find a better stretch of holes than #14 (par 3, 207 yds) & #15 (par 4, 407 yds) and #16 (par 5, 462 yds) – all yardage from the blue tees.  #14 plays over a creek downhill into almost a natural punchbowl.  #15 has a forced carry uphill to a dogleg left.  The approach then has to carry a pond to a shallow green (I think it’s the best hole on the course).  #16 is a very reachable par 5 that is just fun to play and comes at the right time in the routing.  I don’t see many holes made like this one anymore.

Finally, I wish that the 18th was about 40 yds longer or shorter.  From the blue tees it measures 423 yds. with the downhill fairway running out at the 150 yd. marker into 30 yds. of wetlands.  Assuming you play the appropriate tee, you can never hit driver and carry the hazard which forces a lay-up and a long uphill approach to the green.  I don’t like the lack of options off the tee after a wonderful stretch of holes starting at #14.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 04:09:25 PM by Geoffrey_Walsh »

Kyle Harris

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2005, 06:47:20 PM »
Geoff,

I've come to consider Makefield my home (a man without one, and far better than Five Ponds).

My thoughts on 13: Hit your 3-wood higher :-)

Seriously though, the first time I played it, I had my ball roll right through the green, so yes I initially had your thoughts, however, subsequent playings have yeilded better results. In the four times I've played it since, I've attempted to land the 3 wood softly on top of the hill at left and let it trickle to the green. It's worked twice, with one staying on top of the hill, and another pulled left. Left isn't too bad if you can avoid the bunkers, though that may change as the greens harden up a bit.

Four and Five are awesome holes. First time I played the 4th, I didn't think I could drive it and did, and since then, have challenged that bunker on the right in hopes of getting the bounce.

For the fifth, I usually lay up and try to knock a wedge in tight. Can't wait for that green to harden up.

I do not like the back of the sixth green. I feel that an awesome horizon green could be had if they lost the mounds over the back of the green. All you'd see from the approach to the long hole is the flag against the sky.

Makefield's one-shotters are the best set on any public course in the area. From the long 14th you alluded to, to the short 3rd with it's wonderful green complex that requires thought to every hole location. (I love the drop off to the back right, and the little spot of fairway you can run the shot up to the green on just over that right bunker to prevent a ball from rolling off the back right). Unfortunately, I can see the course losing those chipping areas to negligent maintenance rather quickly.

With two reachable par fives and two three shotters, the course has a balance, again, not found in any other public track in the area.

Have you played Jericho? If so, the stretch from 14-16 reminds me VERY much of the stretch of holes at Jericho from 15-17. (Long par 3, long par 4 around the corner with water in front, and short, reachable par five).

Gerry B

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2005, 01:08:25 AM »
played a new course outside ofTtoronto recently -Bondhead -Hurdzan / Fry design -  thought it was a pretty good course -Shivas  /Ben Dewar / Robert Thompson might have have some further insight into this course

Geoffrey_Walsh

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Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2005, 04:15:24 PM »
Kyle,

Didn't realize there was another GCA'er who played Makefield that often.  We'll have to get together sometime!

I'll have to try your method of playing #13... aiming at the crest of that plateau and trying to let the ball filter down towards the putting surface.  However, if the ball stays up it still leaves that downhill pitch shot from an awkward distance.  I'll withhold judgment until I play it again, but I still think it was crammed into the corner of the property and needs some work.

I agree with your thoughts on holes 4-6.  #4 seems pretty simple and straightforward but can bite you, especially if you are long or right of the green.  I have already given my thoughts on #5, but I'd encourage you to go for the green off the tee.  Maybe you need to hit your driver a little higher... :)

#6 would be better without the mounding in the back.  In addition, it is a wonderful example of a hole that you get to know after playing it a few times.  Most hit their drives way too far to the right (the tee box sets you up that way) and have almost 200 yds. in.  However, if you can carry the left bunker and get some roll, I've had as little as 120 yds. in.  Makefield definitely plays best when its firm and fast.

I've played the front at Jericho but not the back, but the settings are definitely similar between the two courses.  

What are your thoughts on the finishing hole at Makefield?

Kyle Harris

Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2005, 05:56:09 PM »
Geoff,

I have yet to actually hit a decent tee shot on 18 at Makefield (only have gotten there twice, other times became too dark to play). However, standing on the tee I can't help but worrying about reaching the creek.

I've yet to hit anything more than a wedge or chip third shot into the green, but I can see my self trying to scuttle a mid iron on the left side when I actually decide to hit that fairway. Not sure if that's practical though.

I can see that course becoming REALLY tough and fun in the coming years when things firm up a bit. The greens need to settle and get some truer roll to them first though.

PThomas

  • Total Karma: -17
Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2005, 04:58:28 PM »
Angels Crossing
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2005, 07:43:14 PM »
I will second Cary's comments on May River @ Palmetto Bluff, it has to be a strong candidate.

But lets also not forget the efforts of our own Paul Cowley for DLIII's group at The Patriot GC (@ Grand Harbor) here in SC as well.  I have posted on it here in the past.  Some may not like the "ruins" (personally I did) but regardless you cannot deny that the intriguing greens and surrounds make for a very enjoyable and imaginative round of golf.

I may get back out there again later this week for another looksee in fact.  It is one of those courses that you look forward to playing again as you know there are some great slopes, bumps, false edges/fronts and such that you cant wait to tackle again.

True North GC in Northern MI is quite good as well.  I have heard good things about Walnut Cove (Cliffs Group) up near Asheville althought I have yet to get out there (give me a couple weeks).

Greywalls has to be a major candidate in the public category.

Arrowhead Point State Park GC in Elberton GA is spectacular on the affordable Public side, but I wonder how many people will see it as it is about as remote as you can get in this side of the country.
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Paul Richards

  • Total Karma: -2
Re:Best New Courses for 2005 - ???
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2005, 08:32:29 PM »
I'll throw one into the hopper here - Canyata in Marshall, Illinois.


"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG